Sony goes very micro with the NEX-C3. When is this going to end?

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I guess that after the Megapixel race we are going to see a completely new kind of competition…the “who makes the smallest camera” fight! I just got this image from a source. It is a size comparison made between the current Panasonic GF2, Olympus E-PL2 and the upcoming Sony NEX-C3.

I kindly invite you my other second website MirrorlessRumors.com to learn more about the NEX-C3. I just published the NEX-C3 specs and flash and lens details (Click here to read them).

I guess it’s not hard to predict that even Panasonic and Olympus will soon try to develop smaller cameras. But does it really matter for you?

What do you think about the minimizing race?

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  • El Aura

    The NEX height is already limited by the lens mount, the thickness is pretty much limited already by the flange distance + sensor and display thickness (the latter two will not get much thinner as they are already). And the width is limited by display size + controls (assuming display keeps the image aspect ratio and goes full height).

    Thus the only thing that can go smaller is the width by removing controls.

  • I seriously don’t get why the NEX series is so popular (or isn’t it?), as those toy cameras have neither a hot-shoe nor an optional EVF. Add the bigger lenses and that format becomes even more unpopular.

    Sensor size isn’t everything, Sony.

    • admin

      It’s almost a miracle that the NEX cameras are so popular. Ugly design, terrible interface, proprietary hot shoe (NEX-3 and NEX-5) + almost and probably the most important poitn…almost NO lenses!

      Maybe the sensor really matters, or/and better marketing because Sony is already present in every store with many electroni products.

      • Boss

        The NEX is a joke compared to MFT, the sensor doesn’t matter much when you’re using Sony’s inferior glass

        • JeremyT

          Sony’s got a massive marketing budget, and they aim this squarely at P&S upgraders. That’s a market that I think both Olympus and Panasonic have neglected; they make more serious machines with more serious prices. Even the E-PL series is a big leap from P&S.

          That said, I wonder whether NEX is really very successful financially. Sony bought their way into the DSLR market by acquiring Minolta, and they can afford to throw money away on NEX indefinitely. When you’ve got such huge pockets, you can afford to make a few missteps.

          • Michelvw

            I respectfully disagree with all of you.

            After owning a panasonic GH1 for a year, I can assure you that i feel a LOT better with my NEX than my GH1. ISO3200 on my nex is perfectly usable, when the GH1’s ISO800 was borderline acceptable. Anything above was totally unusable!
            Also, the colors on the panasonic were way off.

            Stop kidding yourself thinking that the NEX has a terrible interface or whatnot. Just update your camera, and you can assign what function you want to the buttons you like.

            For me, it is truely the perfect camera, no doubt.
            The lenses are fine. Some people came up with the rumor that they are mediocre, and later all kinds of people use these rumors to assure themselves that they’re fine with their M43 set.

            Sorry, but for me and a lot of people to come, NEX is like a DSLR when M43 is like a compact IQ wise.

        • Vlad

          The same way I can say that MFT is a joke compared to NEX, given that it doesn’t address beginners very nicely, but it doesn’t address pros either. It’s just a bunch of mid-level cameras.

      • Jeff

        The quality of IQ with the Sony’s sensor is better like it or not. How much difference is the Sony’s zoom kit vs the Panasonic zoom kit? Not much right? Sure you can buy the pana 20mm, but most new buyers will start with the zoom kit first and there’s no question the Sony is a better buy to their eyes.

        I started with the GF1 and wasn’t impressed and almost gave up and go back to dslr until i gave it another try with the Sony. The Sony’s IQ totally gave me similar images as dslr and this with a mediocre kit lens. I would imagine how much better the NEX with a high quality lens.

        There must a reason why Sony, Samsung, Fuji, Ricoh and Pentax are choosing a bigger sensor for their EVIL camera don’t you think?

      • JM

        I had a similar feeling until my favorite photographer moved from m43 to NEX. He’s saying that using adapted lens with NEX feels much more natural to him…

        • bilgy_no1

          For adapted lenses, the NEX has the advantage that the FOV is closer to the original (e.g. 50mm lens becomes 75mm perspective instead of 100mm. OTOH, the NEX system doesn’t have an EVF yet, and that’s an advantage for the PEN and G2/3/GH2 etc. With the VF-2 I can achieve focus pretty accurately without magnifying the view first. That makes shooting the vintage lenses much more comfortable.

    • Fishfishfish

      If I was a customer choosing my first upgrade from a point and shoot compact camera, the NEX system could be appealing to me. However, after I learnt more about photography, when I want to change some settings while taking pictures, and purchase more lenses to suit my needs, I would realize the drawbacks of the NEX system (i.e. lacking of buttons and the huge size of lens!).

    • MikeS

      NEX is popular because it appeals to consumers. They don’t want a complicated camera (the simpler, the better), just one that has (1) a “good” number of megapixels (changes yearly), (2) “full” HD (even if it is just 1080i), (3) faster performance/better image quality than a compact, and (4) portability. These people don’t care about things like depth of field and manual control; they just want a nice big photo/video of [family event] they can put up on the living room TV every once in a while.

      Lack of lenses isn’t an issue, because most users won’t take off the kit lens to begin with. (I see dozens of DSLRs adorning tourists’ necks from week to week, and they always have a kit lens attached.)

      This is an unfortunate and ridiculous trend. Hopefully we’ll see bodies that target enthusiasts (NEX-7, EP-3, G???) by the end of the year.

      • XA4

        Correct, also explains why NEX5 outsells NEX3 – more MP, “full”HD, and smaller size, for not much more $.
        Seems like makers have covered the low end. Time for the good stuff!

      • Miroslav

        Spot on MikeS. The first two paragraphs sum the reasons of NEX success exactly. Most of the people just do not want to bother learning how to shoot, they have other priorities. They just want the results – better pictures.

        But I don’t think that is an unfortunate and ridiculous trend. It’s just the way it is with all appliances on the market – large manufacturers make what they presume most people will like and buy.

        Would you buy a mobile phone that you have to set up every time before making a call? No, you just want to type the number and push the green button. That’s what most people want from their camera: point and push the button. And spend their spare time doing whatever they like to do.

        On the other hand, there are picky people like us 🙂 …

  • patrick

    The Sony NEX body is small alright, but lets talk about the smallest body + lens. Sony needs to make a compact/collapsible design kit lens or a decent pancake lens.

    The combo of Olympus E-PL2 with kit lens good, as with the Panasonic GF2 with 14mm lens. The Panasonic 20mm is also compact size.

    Also I think a built in flash (even weak flash) is a must for these type of cameras. There are times when there is a strong backlight and the only way to take a picture is to fill flash. Having to bring an external flash defeats the purpose of a compact camera.

    • admin

      You are right Patrick. And the NEX lens roadmap on MirrorlessRumors that all future lenses will be bigger than the currently only pancake (the 16mm f/2.8)!!!

      • Olympiad

        But at least they get a portrait prime. Is it our turn now?
        Speaking of which… how many hours until your Olympus lens rumor?

        • admin

          Today if all works fine with my sources!

        • Miroslav

          “But at least they get a portrait prime.”

          If this site is to be believed, m4/3 will get a portrait prime ( Olympus 50mm ) sooner than NEX. It’s just that the marketing department of Sony ( and Samsung ) works in a different way than Panasonic/Olympus and announces lenses two years in advance.

  • > … the “who makes the smallest camera” fight …

    To me that is more of “what camera has worst ergonomics” fight.

    There are several elements to the camera: grip, VF, flip LCD and controls. Yes, grip is a part of a camera too. I do not mind the size of the camera’s body, but all the elements should be there and should be usable.

    • XA4

      Actually the NEX grip is very useable. GF1&GF2 grips are too small. Even tiny NEX-C3 appears to have nicer grip than GF2. No need to make grip so tiny since overall depth is dictated by the lens. New G3 gets it right.
      You also mention the LCD, flip LCD is another advantage for Sony. G3 superior,fully articulated screen could fit on GF, with depth equal to NEX.

      • Esa Tuunanen

        Grip might be well usable if camera were some digicompact but those APS-C optics are anything else than compact making whole seriously imbalanced with zoom lens.
        Would be hard time for reviewers to start actually talking about total size and weight of system/body+lens combinations instead of just who makes the smallest “lens cap”.

  • I have difficulties to see the advantages of making such cameras smaller and smaller…
    The size of the GF1 is perfect to me, it fits perfectly in my bag, with 2 other lenses and all my daily stuff ! So I constantly have it with me, no one notices that I am carrying a camera, and I can take every picture I want, no need to make it even smaller !
    No matter how hard they try, those cameras will never be pocketable, so what’s the point ?

  • Kevin

    camera sales are predominantly by consumers, and the average consumer can care less about buttons. how appealing is it when the salesperson advertises NEX-C3 as “same image quality (i.e. sensor size) as a canon 600D”, but the same size as your average DC?

    yet many don’t realize the stupidity of the design until they attach a lens onto it….

    I hate to say but you and I and pan/oly well know that their next m4/3 camera is going to be even smaller because it’ll sell better. that’s why the GF/PEN series sales top the G/GH series – cause the consumer dominates the market.

    now I do like small and a don’t mind few button reductions and stuff. but the size of GF1/EP2 is small enough. unless they can start making paper-thin lenses so we can actually stick it in our jean pockets!

  • I don’t deny that Small is Good, and that Small can be very beautiful. However, with the NEX-Cameras, I have to wonder : Doesn’t it get to a point where it’s too small? Unergonomic and hard to Grip? Poor Balance and a poor center of balance with those heavy lenses. In fact, one issue I have with the NEX-System is that the lenses are way too big and heavy for the camera. Way Too Big.

  • mochapaulo

    I think there is too many physical limit to make an APS-C sensor camera which able to change lenses. Sony might have a try to make a fixed lens version like the Fujifilm X100 but able to place in the pocket.

    I miss the digital version P&S of Yashica T3 with Carl Zeiss Lens!

  • Robbie

    The lens does not matter at all.
    Sony’s target audience would probably just use one lens for everything.

    • Mr. Reeee

      Most low-end DSLR users NEVER get a second lens and take pictures only in Auto mode.

      They buy a big black camera with long zoom lens and a Canon or Nikon logo because those are “real” cameras that will impress their friends. They think the camera does the work and the camera will take better pictures. They know zero about composition, even less about exposure, etc.. Good for the marketing departments at Nikon and Canon. 😉

      As for Sony’s NEX-series, the NEX-5 is an impressive little camera. The design is very nice, understated with excellent materials, fit and finish! It feels solid. The pivoting LCD is beautiful with more than twice the screen resolution of any M4/3 camera. The interface is quite good. On a purely superficial level, it looks and feels better than the small M4/3 cameras, especially the plasticy EPLs. (The NEX-3 feels junky, too.) For Sony’s intended customer it’s perfect.

      I have a GH2, I live in NYC near museums, Central Park, etc. and see WAY more NEX-series cameras than M4/3 cameras.

      We have about 15 years of people who ONLY know how to take pictures using an LCD held out in front of them, whether it’s a P&S camera, cell, smartphone or iPhone camera. To them a viewfinder is something they may have NEVER used (like a pay phone, an LP, cassette or even a CD). It’s odd, archaic and superfluous. Most care nothing about lenses beyond how much the ONE lens they buy with the camera can zoom. It’s small, light, nicely made, simple, easy and takes nice pictures. Good for Sony!

      We here can bad-mouth the NEX all day, but it’s impressive and compelling technology that looks, feels and works more like an iPhone than what we here think of as a real camera.

  • Now I get it… The reason Sony makes its NEX lenses so ginormous is so you won’t lose the camera body to which they’re attached!

    I suppose the next step is to build the camera into the rear lens cap, and control it with some kind of separate wireless gizmo…

    • Seriously! Cameras of the future will look like those handheld telescopes from pirate movies!

      No need for controls, we’ll just use our minds to change settings, and no need for an LCD screen, it will project the image as a 3D hologram, Star Wars style.

      🙂

    • Fishfishfish

      You are spot on! Take a look at this camera.

      http://youtu.be/VgBl0ejQ8c0

  • Olympiad

    NEX is popular because of tiny “gadget” size and look, Sony cache and reputation, and Sony massive marketing and distribution. “Pancake” is very limited, zooms are not compact, no flash, weird external flash connector (though new mini bounce flash looks interesting). APS-C sensor is the main factor for some (but not most) buyers.
    My local store says the 2-lens kit (16 and 18-55mm) for $750 is selling well. Is Panasonic 20mm too expensive for such a kit?

  • TR

    I think the small size goes beyond the problem of lack of controls. I like small (my main interest in M4/3) but I also like a camera that feels good in my hands. For me personally, anything smaller that about the size of the PEN cameras starts to feel a bit too small. I think it is a matter of balance, and PEN has hit the sweet spot.

  • subramanya

    the nex-5 feels very well built, has a much larger sensor and much better low light performance.

  • queen

    omg these nex cameras are freaking ugly, dont you think?

    • Gianluca

      and much worse quality lenses…

  • Boooo!

    How about a third option in the poll?

    “I want a big camera because I’m a man and even the grip on the E-3/E-5 is barely big enough to hold comfortably”

    • Esa Tuunanen

      Exactly, would be hard time to start getting also mirrorless bodies with proper ergonomy and controls in addition to these Asian child worker sized cameras.
      (doesn’t mean brick sized camera if designer just actually knows what he’s doing and marketroids are kept out of way)

  • bilgy_no1

    it depends of course. for someone who’s just got one camera, a complete and compact model would be preferable (i.e. onboard flash, IBIS). If you’ve also got a bigger model, a very small body makes sense as a complementary camera (i.e. next to GH2, have a bare bones ultra-compact model that takes the same lenses)

  • Here’s the next NEX : a huge lens with a ridiculous camera…
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vCITSrOBCqo/RwsKrlzQh3I/AAAAAAAAGMc/HU82TzB8nUc/s400/bazooka.jpg

  • napalm

    Olympus would never have the smallest body since they have IBIS. I would prefer IBIS over small size any day.

  • Miroslav

    I want a small camera with enough manual controls. I want a GF2 sized body with E-5 image quality and GH2 video features. Why do camera manufacturers have a logic that higher end cameras should have large bodies? It’s as if vehicle companies only put strong engines in trucks. Where is Ferrari in the camera world? And no, it’s not Leica. Leica are Rolls-Royce at best :).

    I think that 110 x 70 x 30 mm ( excluding protrusions such as grip and EVF hump ) is smallest a ILC body with built-in flash should be. And I agree with some of Esa T. previous posts, that LCDs are too large. When I switched from camera with 1.5″ LCD to 2.7″ there was huge difference, but going from 2.7″ to 3″, there wasn’t any. Now I’m back to 2.7″ with E-PL1. A 2.5″ 4:3 or 2.7″ 16:9 LCD is enough. A smaller screen should enable small body to have enough manual controls. I think it’s a better trade off than migrating controls to a large touchscreen.

    Of course, larger bodies should exist as well, for users that use big aperture and/or tele zoom lenses.

  • XA4

    I don’t understand the comment about child workers.
    Anyway, the Sony lenses may be crap, but they don’t look or feel like crap. Nice, sleek, shiny metal, that’s how Sony does things. There is a perception of premium quality (even though it doesn’t hold true for every Sony product).
    They have been very aggressive with the miniaturization, and Sony sensors have high ISO advantages.
    True, interface is useable after firmware update. Besides, average user doesn’t want all those confusing knobs and buttons. It is less camera and more iPhone but still capable of high IQ. It is a large sensor point and shoot, not large sensor advanced compact. Hopefully Pany and Oly won’t chase Sony all the way to the bottom.

  • For me the question is not anymore, how the body size could be reduced further, as meanwhile the lens size determines what still can be held comfortable.

    The question now is, how a good EVF can be completely integrated into the body allowing a classic rangefinder style. If the EVF is good, the size of the display on the body can be reduced in order to leave enough space for manual controls that still make sense.

  • Alfons

    Nice that all this technology can be crammed to small package, but at some point it gets ankward to use.

    The small SLR and rangefinder bodies of past decades didn’t have dozens of buttons. I find current m4/3 bodies hard to handle with my medium size hands. I hope the touch screens will reduce the ammount of buttons on the bodies in near future. All I really need is on/off -switch, aperture ring, shutter speed wheel, AE-lock and exposure compensation, AF-button and shutter release. That already makes 7 buttons!

    • Alfons

      oh, I do use AF point selection too! That adds at least a 4-way controller or a joystic to the interface 😀

  • Rachnaroch

    “It’s almost a miracle that the NEX cameras are so popular.”

    Or that Olympus is still in business… 🙂

    “Ugly design”

    Nothing more subjective than that. And besides there are two NEX models with very different looks.

    “, terrible interface”

    For someone used to a Nikon D3X, an Olympus E-5 or even a Pentax K-r, of course yes. For someone used to a compact, hell no. There are millions more of the latter.

    “, proprietary hot shoe (NEX-3 and NEX-5)”

    And for most people that these cameras are designed for… how is that important?

    ” + almost and probably the most important poitn…almost NO lenses!”

    Again, not that this matters to these cameras’ target audience. Most buyers will be more than happy with any mid range kit zoom.

    “Maybe the sensor really matters,”

    You thought it doesn’t?

    ” or/and better marketing because Sony is already present in every store with many electroni products.”

    That also helps of course but it’s not always a key to success. See old Sony flops like Minidisc, BETA, UMD and so, or how they lose against the competition in other fields (e.g. PSP vs Nintendo DS).

    Seriously, why do people here, or in other places like DPReview, think that every camera must meet his or her personal expectations? Get over it: if you are reading this, you are not the target of most cameras. I don’t like the NEX cameras, just like I don’t like any tiny camera (a GH2 like the one I own is small enough for me), but I don’t see the need to bash them and try to childish justify my decisions. They are not for me, but they may be for millions others… what’s wrong with that?

    • fta

      Rachnaroch, bravo! +1

      • admin

        Ugly design…yes it’s subjective but most of the reviewers do share that opinion. So I guess it’s an important point.

        Yes the interface has been designed for noobs (but it is still complicated also for them!)
        Bye

        • Vlad

          Most reviewers happen to be pro or serious amateur photographers. They are hardly the reference for any consumer stuff.

      • Gianluca

        ..the 2 lenses currently available for NEX got only bad review everywhere..so good sensor with bad lenses it’s not a good match for me..

        • Irfan

          The two lenses got very good review on DPR, though. Photozone had a good review of 18-55 kit lens.

    • Vlad

      Rachnaroch, +1 more! I would also add 2 things:

      – no lenses – the system is less than an year old, get real

      – in many countries Sony’s marketing is non-existen and their distribution sucks

  • Nathan

    Not feeling threatened. Sony doesn’t get photography. They leave off things like buttons for critical photographic functions, they don’t balance the lenses and bodies well at all, they’re awkward to use and insist on making their own proprietary flash connection, denying tons of flexibility to the creative.
    Of all of the camera companies, I think Sony is the most authentically Japanese (that is, they pander to consumers and the popular without thought for a base of serious users, and they dictate from the top what is to be built without bothering to discuss product strategies with actual users- very authoritative and traditional).
    I don’t need either touch-screens or menu-controlled cameras. If setting shutter speed and aperture requires more than two actions, I can’t consider it a serious camera. And that 18-55 is HUGE for f3.5-5.6, I can’t imagine how big a serious lens would get.
    I’m thinking Olympus and Panasonic chose well by going with a slightly smaller sensor. The Olympus 14-42 is a 37mm thread, the sony 18-55 is 55 or 58mm. Disgusting. Show me more pictures of how tiny the body is while not showing sizes with comparable lenses, see if I fall for it.

    Now, if they make compact pancakes like Pentax does, they’ll win- but only if they add manual controls that don’t suck.

    • hehe…Strange to see how angry and irritated people become by something they don’t own and that nobody is forcing upon them. Just choose to look in another direction. Let the people who like a product that you don’t, like it in peace. Then we will not bother you either. There exist as many reasons to buy a product as they are sold in numbers. Things you don’t see and other don’t see, but I’m not going to discuss it with you, since you have a choice of not liking something although I like it

      • MJ

        The thing that bothers ‘us’ is that they’re clearly not in it with a photography point of view, and so for us ‘real’ photographers waste a perfectly good chance to design a proper camera, being a large company with money and all.

        Even if it’s not the camera for me, it’s annoying to see them trivialize important photographic features while adding more trivialities with supposed ‘features’ for our convenience. Just to have something that sounds fancy in their campaigns to unwary consumer ears, but only adds more clutter, unaware that technically photography actually isn’t that complicated at all. Those poor consumers don’t know better than that it’s their fault for not understanding the camera because ‘photography’ just is so complicated. But it’s NOT, the CAMERA is.

  • Mar

    Sony: We have more bodies than lenses! Yay!

    • Bob B.

      +1

    • Vlad

      Olympus: we have the same body iterated several times and we call it our lineup.

      • Steve

        +1

  • Consumer

    I think the question is incorrectly put. You are asking about the BODY size of interchangeable lens cameras. A few milimeters difference in the body size means NOTHING unless you always use the camera with the smallest pancake possible. But that’s rarely the case. People have several lenses, people have zoom lenses, people use old (and big) lenses with an adaptor. All these contribute to the overall size of the SYSTEM. It doesn’t really matter how big the body is if you put an 18-200mm on a NEX or a 14-140/150 on a MFT camera.

  • c.d.embrey

    What I want is a small, high quality camera with manual controls with NO touch screen. Fast prime lenses from 8mm to 45mm, NO zooms. It also needs a real viewfinder (shooting at arms length doesn’t cut it). Did I mention it needs a standard hot shoe. YMMV

    Hopefully the new Nikon mirrorlees will be close to what I want.

  • mahler

    I think this smallness and “pockeatbility” race (nonsense as soon you put a non-pancake lens on the body) is much worse than the megapixel race.

    Clearly, the companies go wrong directions not producing what ambitious photographers want and need.

  • Bob B.

    Great sensor, small size..but no viewfinder…so it is really a useless offering from Sony yet again in my world.

  • ronbot

    For the intended target (P&S upgrader) it’ll be a good camera no doubt:
    -smallest intechangeable camera especially with the 16mm
    -more pixels than typical P&S (and any Olympus m43 for that matter)
    -DSLR image quality from the big sensor
    -similar menu system
    -not many confusing buttons/dials
    -tilting and hi-res LCD
    -HD video with stereo
    -detachable flash
    -other Sony features like sweep panorama, etc.

    The other things don’t matter to them:
    -IS in lens instead of body
    -small selection of lenses
    -no hotshoe
    -no viewfinder
    -no direct access to all exposure settings

    I’d get one for my wife. Actually, I could’ve gone for the NEX-5 for myself instead of the E-PL2 if it wasn’t for the Pany 20/1.7

  • SteveD

    As others have said, it’s the lens, stupid. That’s what keeps a small body from being “pocketable”

  • Joel

    In the case of Sony it is pointless. “Hey we have a tiny camera, ohh you want a decent quality small lens on it, sorry can’t help you…”

  • Steve

    I think the better NEX lenses will come. For now, the bodies are very well done IMO (sensor, handling, customizable controls.) I would say the controls are about as good as can be given the design constraints.

    Personally I would still prefer Leica X1 type controls with dedicated aperture and shutter speed, but understand why the NEX controls are the way they are.

  • A. H.

    I bought my Sony NEX-C3D kit because of its competitive price, APS-C sensor and large tiltable LCD. I was expecting to make use of my stable of Old Minolta MD optics as the write-ups on the NEX series appear to imply. Wrong. I bought a PIXCO adaptor for NEX-MD conversion, and the lenses fitted fine but the camera will not let me depress to shoot saying that the lens was not properly attached. Also, I found that not all FW-50 Lithium batteries are acceptable. I found one was, but the other was rejected as incompatible. Looks like Sony is very protective of its brand products. If anyone can tell me how to bypass the lens compatibility issue, I will be most grateful.
    Otherwise, the features are up to scratch especially the Panorama modes, and HDR auto is fantastic. Lens stabilization is not great and you need a tripod a lot more often. Lenses tend to be more RED tinted, and focussing at the edges can be compromised when doing copying of flat docs or photos, forcing a smaller aperture. Beware of fat arms/hands for portraits too.

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