Thom Hogan: Why Samsung failed with the NX system (and why MicroFourThirds rules)
In his latest post (click here to read it) explained the importance of having “open mounts”.
Some excerpts:
MicroFourThirds: “One of the things that is pushing their success amongst current DSLR users is that you can get a mount adapter for virtually any mount.”
About Samsung: “They simply don’t see the mount issue that’s holding them back. Where Olympus is quietly encouraging mount adapters, Samsung isn’t.”
The future: “it’s a game of keeping losses to a minimum to slow the contraction that happens after market saturation. I know I’m repeating the same thought, but the solution is simple: redefine what a camera is. Right now, Panasonic and Olymus are closer to doing that than Nikon and Canon.”
Let’s see how Thom Hogan would redefine the camera:
- “Modular. Remember that non-stop technology march? Well, we can completely junk our equipment every time a sensor generation comes down the pike, or we can just replace the sensor module. Which would you prefer?
- Programmable. This necessarily doesn’t mean you, the user, has to write programs. It means that there’s a known API to the underlying hardware (and modules!) and a way to take advantage of it. Whatever you need to do, there should be an app for that, not a dedicated feature with restrictive parameters.
- Communicating. The camera sits in the middle of so many processes and initiates most of them. But right now we’re using Sneaker Net to communicate (that’s an reference to the old practice of taking a disk out of your computer and going down the hall to put it in another one in order to move files). But here’s another thing: cameras should be able to communicate with other cameras, other camera accessories, and things outside the camera world, all simultaneously. Right now most of the communication that is done by our cameras is proprietary, highly restricted, and often sequential.“
I would love to see such a camera system and you?
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Recent comments
Comment from Evjenij: Nobody that has any common sense buys a ...
Comment from Thyl Engelhardt: I don't see real encouragement here. Oth...
Comment from Din: I remember when Sony came with the Alpha...
Comment from mark chan: So thim is a noink fanboy and he pulls s...
Din
3 years ago |The EVIL market is new, just let see when new Samsung products come out and new EVIL makers get into the market, just we wait for Sony and Nikon, the best in APS-C sensor and we see the evolution.
Canon and Nikon have a lot of competition for a long time (Oly, Pentax, Sony/Minolta, Sigma, Fuji, etc), the actual EVIL system just are Oly, Pana y Samsung.
The M4/3 will find the same limitations with the sensor than 4/3.
Time to time… let see new Schneider/Zeiss prime, solid-state AF system and new APS-C sensors.
Andrew Reid
3 years ago |I think Thom’s article is interesting, but it’s wrong. Nearly all of the M43 mount adapters are made by 3rd parties, mostly in China and Hong Kong cashing in on quite a large market and demand. The NX cameras are so new that nobody has yet made an adapter and there isn’t yet a large enough market. Panasonic have the advantage of having already 5 Micro 4/3rds models on the market and then there are the Olympus cameras too. Bigger market, encourages the mount adapter makers – there has been no encouragement from Panasonic on this, as much as there has been no encouragement from Samsung.
Lenses do lock people in and make a lot of profit. But the lack of mount adapters is the wrong approach, in the future there will be no reason why one lens can’t work on many different EVILS!
at
3 years ago |It is quite interesting to see how long the Samsung NX system can stay in the market…
Joseph
3 years ago |The view of Thom is quite interesting, in fact I see modular design of the camera body is equally important as the lens mount. It will be very ideal in the near future that all our accessories can communicate in wireless though established technologies like Bluetooth.
May be in the future, we will have flash meters that transfer measured values to the camera body immediately once got the readings, remote flashes groups that trigger through Bluetooth in 10m non-line-of-sight range, and wireless shutter trigger through apps on Bluetooth enabled smartphones or desktop computers in studios.
Cutter
3 years ago |The article is a bit of ‘teaching my grandmother to suck eggs’ really. Lens mounts have always been used to trp people into systems. I don’t see what Oly and Panny have brought anything new to the party!
The Pentax K mount was used by many other manufacturers, there was also mount adaptors for older screw thread lenses, as there are now adaptors for lots of differing mounts available.
The treatment of Samsung is rather harsh as they are in the same position as Panasonic were with their fist G1, except that they have a PK adaptor available instead of four thirds. Third party companies have already announced other adaptors, and the copies will flow given a little time, just like the batteries already have.
Alfons
3 years ago |Ricoh has the modularity. They just don’t have the potent to fully exploit it in a form of full frame sensor and legendary lens mounts.
Too bad
I love their design.
Alex
3 years ago |Is seems APPLE would need to make a camera in order move this market forward
C’mon Panasonic – you can do it!
Din
3 years ago |Samsung just has 3 months in the EVIL market with only one and its first camera with video 720p (G1 did not), Novoflex announced and its website already is selling more than 7 different adapter to different mounts.
I think Tom should read and find out how long the NX is in the market and everything about it.
One camera, 3 lenses, 2 flash and some lens filter in only 3 months… I dont see too bad.
Bu
3 years ago |Personally I’m less interested in adapters and lenses, and more interested in lenses designed for the m43 format. In theory, Samsung’s new offering would be ideal, but in reality, the body is large, the lenses are large, so I’m uninterested.
Seb
3 years ago |What is the point of having so much adapters when you have a x2 crop factor ? M4/3 is top notch right now because it’s mature system, but an aps-c mirror less camera is more interresting if you’re into legacy lenses.
Jules
3 years ago |Alfons: Ricoh GXR is not modular, in fact it is even worse than current slr for that matter : sensors are coupled to lens. If a new generation of sensors comes out, its all the modules that are at stake, not just the body.
It remains an intriguing design, make no mistake.
don
3 years ago |Seb – In my opinion the whole point of using an adapter with the m4/3 2x mulitiplier is to substantially reduce the size and weight of the lens for a given 35mm effective focal length especially at the telephoto end. Already in existing APS-C there are very few wide angles of any sort and add 1.5X makes them normal anyway and mount the common 50mm fast legacy lens it becomes only a 75mm much much less useful than an effective 100mm portrait lens in m4/3. If anything you could argue more rationally the point that going mirrorless m4/3 and/or full frame makes more sense. I believe Pany or Oly already has a patent in the works for a new 0.5x converter for m4/3 which will enable you to get FF using FF legacy lenses? Don’t make the mistake of confusing same DOF issues as not the same thing at all as equivalent focal length. Already soon you will be obtain shallow depth of field through firmware built into the camera on just about any format?
Thom Hogan
3 years ago |I did not write “Olympus is making adapters.” I wrote that “Olympus is quietly encouraging adapters.” If you don’t know what the difference between those two statements are, you’re in the same boat as Samsung ;~).
Samsung claims to want to be the leading DSLR/ILMC camera company. To do so with a proprietary mount means that they’ll have to not only make better cameras than the others, but provide a full line of lenses. Neither is really happening. That is not to say that Samsung is not making a decent camera–the NX-10 is decent. But “decent” doesn’t change momentum in markets. To win in the camera game you need to disrupt.
Note also that I wrote that the more I use the mount adapted lenses versus the actual m4/3 lenses, the more I gravitate to the m4/3 lenses. Some of them are quite good. When the G1/EP-1 came out I thought that I’d be using my Leica lenses adapted on them. These work nicely, but I discovered I like a few of the m4/3 lenses and just use them instead. This is the reason why you want to encourage mount adapters. Get the person to switch bodies, THEN sell them lenses.
patrick
3 years ago |Andrew,
in Germany, there is a cashback promotion: Every buyer of a Pen gets 20% rebate on a Novoflex mFT-adaptor. I guess Olympus is aware of the fact that their Pen are widely used with legacy lenses attached.
Old Horse Fish Head Jr.
3 years ago |How does Olympus quietly encourage adapters? It’s a vague statement, and yet I just don’t think it’s true. Do you have any basis for saying “Olympus quietly encourages adapters,” or is it just something fanciful that you invented? I suspect the latter.
I agree with other repliers, Olympus took a while to get adapters, and now Samsung is taking a while to get adapters. Wait a few months, and EBay will be flooded with adapters, especially if the Samsung models are popular.
Serge
3 years ago |Now, as far as ability to change camera’s software is concerned, some work has been done for GH1 by tester13 in dvxuser.com forum. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=206788&page=42
Changes not quite as extensive as Thom’s Open Kamera, but it’s a step in the right direction nevertheless
spam
3 years ago |I agree with Thom about the importance of adaptors. A lot of people think it’s a really great idea to use old lenses with a mFT body. In practice most people like autofocus though, and will probably end up buying mFT-lenses. Now, if they only could make a decent Canon EF adaptor. I’m ready for the adaptor trap.
Kirilius
3 years ago |I don’t agree with Thom Hogan.
I don’t care about third-party lenses and adapters. The mirrorless cameras are about simplicity and complactness. Using an adapter + older (and bigger) lenses defeats the purpose of the mirrorless idea.
Personally I intend to buy either E-PL1 or the NX10 in the next couple of weeks and have absolutely no intention to go outside of the set of lenses offered by the manufacturer.
Samsung has announced their lenses roadmap already. Within several months there will be a full complement of standard zoom lenses plus a macro and a wider pancake. Combine this with the Schneider primes that are coming soon and think: why do you need to use other lenses through an adapter?
I think the biggest problem with the EVIL cameras nowadays is the price. Even the cheapest (E-PL1 and NX10) ones are more expensive than some entry-level DSLRs. But Samsung is ahead of the game in this regard because they have the lowest price for the features offered. (E-PL1 may be doing better in IQ but is a class below in terms of body speed and handling).
Mark
3 years ago |It’s amazing that no digital camera maker yet has copied the Iphone Hipstamatic app idea. Sure there are art filters and whatnot, but no one has dared to make that dedicated digital lomo. And no, I’m not talking about mobile phone quality miniature cameras claiming to be the next Holga. Take a camera like the Ixus 100 for example. Cram it full of filters where you can combine 2-4 effects. Market it as such too and don’t try to cater for everyone. It would be an instant classic.
Din
3 years ago |Mr. Hogan is prejudging a system that never have tried.
Adapters?…
Novoflex adapters for NX system:
-Canon FD
-Contax/Yashica
-Hasselblad
-Leica R
-M42
-Mamiya 645
-Minolta AF / Sony Alpha
-Minolta MD
-Nikon
-Olympus OM
-Pentax 6×7
-Pentax K
-T2
Micro 4/3:
Exactly the same plus Leica M… 13 adapters for different mounts to NX, just one less than M4/3.
Now, can you judge a new system with just 3 months in the market?
Panasonic announced the G1 +14-45mm/45-150mm/20mm and after 3-4 months annunced the second one (GH1), Samsung announced the same. NX10 + 18-55mm/50-200mm/30mm + 2 flash (20/42) + some lens filters and already announced the superzoom, macro lens, wide angle prime and compact zoom, surely will come new bodies this year.
If the rumors are true, Schneider would be making new fast prime lenses to NX system.
Again, this is not a article or analysis, this is a prejudges from a fanboy…
Mark Chan
3 years ago |It’s really interesting how people are responding to comments here.
Personally speaking, using EP-1 and later E30; the opportunity to use legacy lens brought by the m4/3s was one factor I chose the system.
The chance to use relatively cheap legacy lens mounts with apertures makes one think its more flexible.
Don’t know the samsung system, so can’t really comment. I do know that in Hong Kong it does not have the same sell-out results that the EP-1 got in its debut; obviously I may not have asked around often enough…
And to call Thom an ‘fanboy’ is really funny. I wonder if lads here ever read his background, but I digress.
zul
3 years ago |Personally I believe the market will be flooded with this mirorless camera by the end of the year with different mount. The question is whether this system can sustain and stay long in the market. Also how it been accepted also will determine whether the third party will be interested to develop accessories such adapter and lenses.
This mirrorless camera will eventually just become like a DSLR in terms of it closeness…. 4/3 will have it own mount, sony and samsung will have it own and other more who is going to join the mirrorless.
I think Samsung will stay for a while until the big 2 giant awaken. At this point of time, the mirrorless will just be as complicated as the DSLR in terms of it market penetration and it pie.
It is always an advantage for the big 2 Canon and Nikon and no a small player. People buying camera is not because of it image quality only but rather a brand. I know this because I asked around and most of them just know about Canon and Nikon….
So I believe in a near future, there will be another cycle of life of this camera technology where one will stay and successful and another one will just die again. And the cycle will go on and on and on
Miroslav
3 years ago |I agree that the problem with Samsung is proprietary lens mount, they should have continued with Pentax, but there are more flaws in its NX concept. They are not making an enough innovative product to turn the people away from other brands. There is nothing that stands out. And no IBIS, large body and some minor glitches make it even less attractive. One could expect such a mirrorless camera from an established DSLR manufacturer such as Canon or Nikon, but Samsung that has no legacy, should have offered something different. I find Sony’s mirrorless system much more attractive than Samsung’s. NX lenses and accessories range is good for a three month old system though.
CR Dude
3 years ago |Thom IS a self-admitted Noink fanboy, just read that on his site or on the DPR forums. He sells books for Nikon cameras, so let’s not pretend he’s objective. m4/3 and similar would always be a niche market for equipment collectors and techie snobs/dilletantes. It’s only compact with the smallest lenses, attach something more usable and it’s as bulky as any SLR.
Thom Hogan
3 years ago |Again, I wrote “encouraging mount adapters.” It doesn’t matter that mount adapters are available if the masses don’t know about them. When I see Samsung product managers demonstrating the camera with other lenses that aren’t theirs, you’ll know that they got the message. I’ve seen multiple Olympus product managers doing so.
> You can’t judge a system on three months in the market
Actually, there’s an aspect of product marketing and management that does just that. It’s called a momentum study. Products tend to follow specific patterns on introduction and soon thereafter. From those early patterns you can predict future patterns. Not perfectly. Statistics never is a guarantee. But given the figures I’ve seen so far I’d calculate that the Samsung NX-10 has less than a 5% probability of eclipsing m4/3 in unit volume.
Those that think I’m just a Nikon fan boy need to read my background (and my site, where I often criticize Nikon products and practices).
And while no one here seems to have gone as far as some on other forums, note that nowhere did I say that “Samsung will fail.” I simply wrote that “Samsung doesn’t get it.” This is indeed a subjective comment on my part, but it’s based in part upon interactions with camera makers at trade shows, with product managers, with product reps, and with dealers who carry these products and deal with these companies every day.
Evjenij
2 weeks ago |Nobody that has any common sense buys a csc camera to use old manual focus lenses. There is nothing more slow and annoying then to manual focus on a lcd or evf and than stop down, then shoot, then open up aperture then repeat processs. People who do this for other than landscape or still life work are gluttons for punishement.
Samsungs problem is that they have no idea what kind of cameras they want to make. They seem to make cameras that look uncool, that have glaring omissions, like the nx200 missing evf or port for evf. They are busy trying to make gimmicvky cameras then cameras ppl can use for photography. They copy other makers faults and they just dont seem to care about what csc users want in general.
All they have to do to kill m43 is to do things that the m43 is or better at a better price point, but no, they prefer to do anythng other wise. Samsung nx needs to change their name to Minolta.
mark chan
3 years ago |So thim is a noink fanboy and he pulls samsung down so noink of m4/3s can stand on its wobbly legs.
I’d be a fanboy if i had such power!!
And btw, its nikon, and we’talking m4/3s for the heck of it.
In the mean time fiddling with e30 and ais focus detect mount with voigt lens. Wish i had waited and bought focus detect for ep1
Din
3 years ago |I remember when Sony came with the Alpha 100… in that moment with a “momentum study”, nobody would give 1 cent for the Alpha system.
I think nobody can predict or judge a new system with just ONE camera in the market, Samsung could doesn´t make more cameras or unveil 3 new cameras this year. Neither could know if the new cameras will be low-end or advanced models.
“When I see Samsung product managers demonstrating the camera with other lenses that aren’t theirs, you’ll know that they got the message. I’ve seen multiple Olympus product managers doing so.”
I don´t know if you can stay in everywhere in anytime, but to show a camera with a 3rd party lens means nothing… the adapter is there, in Novoflex website the same place where you can find the M4/3 adapter and is very evident that Samsung wants to promote their lenses.
The EVIL market is just a newborn, Panasonic and Olympus were the only one players in that, now Samsung and Sony very soon, after that others and will bring back the sensor size question again.
If the rest Samsung prime lenses are like 30mm f/2 (Did I say it is a APS-C lens?) I would not look for 3rd party lens.
Samsung has a lot interesting technology and capacity, the actual Samsung Digital Imaging Division is integrated in Samsung Electronic, the same took the HDTV Samsung technology to 1st place in USA (over Sony this year) and the Samsung mobile phone to 2nd place in the world.
My “prediction” is: Samsung will have 3 NX cameras this year with 7 lenses, the next year will unveil 2 new NX cameras and 4 lenses. For 2012 they will have 5 NX cameras and 11 lenses.
Thyl Engelhardt
3 years ago |I don’t see real encouragement here. Otherwise, oly would show signs that they intend to be helpful with richer adapters, that include e.g. triggering of the MF assistent, or aperture control/input. Today, all adapters are purely mechanical.
Incidently, the Ricoh GXR gets more modular after Ricoh presented sensor module with a mount instead of a fixed lens.