Mirrorless sales in EU and USA doing pretty bad.

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Vitaly from Personal View (Click here) analyzed the CIPA data (pdf here). He highlighted in red where the sales shrinked and in green where there was a growth. As you can see oversea sales (means outside Japan) shrinked in all camera segments (from compact camera to DSLR to mirrorless). And mirrorless sales are doing worse than DSLR.

Europe: Almost half of cameras were sold compared to the previous period. While the DSLR sales had a minus 10% only.
USA:  Around 30% less mirrorless cameras sold while DSLR had a negligible 3-4% loss only.

Question: Is the mirrorless hype over? What has to be done to bring mirrorless cameras back to success?

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  • Junius

    …thanks to over-priced primes.

    • Digital Camera market focus to shift East:

      Asia is expected to become the sales center for the camera industry, according to market data from Indian firm Ken Research.
      The global camera market is “expected to achieve high growth trajectory in coming years,” the firm says. Mature demand in developed countries is countered by growth in emerging economies such as India and Brazil, Ken adds. Asia will receive 44.6 percent of total camera shipments 2017, and has emerged as the fastest growing market in the global digital camera industry in recent years.

      http://www.kenresearch.com/consumer-products–retail/specialty-retail-products/351-95/Global-Digital-Camera-Industry.html

      I said similar 18-20 months ago…

    • Matthias

      and thanks to missing better zooms… and to too expensive cameras… but I think also camera sales are so bad because the quality of all cameras is so good now that you don’t need to buy a new cam every year, or every second.

    • Pavlo

      That is my pain also. I’m not going to buy fast primes untill they become much cheaper. Both Nikon and Canon offer 50/1.8 for about $120. I’m still on manual legacy primes, untill things changed.

      • I’ve had my E-PL1 for 3 years, and can’t really find a good reason to replace it:
        -I can’t print large enough to find an issue with IQ or noise.
        -AF speed? Well, the only time I need faster is with sports, when PDAF would be required anyway.
        -ergonomics/ manual controls? Have learnt to deal with it.
        etc, etc

        Conclusion: mature market reached. Will get a dual AF version and a good telephoto zoom once that’s sorted, then I should be fine for as long as the camera physically lasts.

        I’m fine with the camera companies slowing down on their development. They all need to shrink their production and overheads, or else some will go under.

      • Anonymous

        I have that $120 Nikor 50/1.8, its optically decent considering the price but AF is dog slow, it only supports AF on certain cameras and build quality is a waste of whatever you spent on it. Canons offering is worse optically, has the same crap build quality, but at least does AF with any recent Canon body.

        The problem is that those lenses are near useless, but thanks to people like you, they are a factor in decisions.

        The Nikor G and Canon L lenses of similar specs are much better, but for a different price.

    • Vlad

      Yeah, right. that’s why DSLRs are doing so much better?
      What kind of analysis is that anyway?

  • Bite Me

    This is where Canon/Nikon will ALWAYS prevail: Cheaper DSLR’s over smaller mirrorless CRAP.

    The consumer is not stupid: You can’t pocket a mirrorless ILC once you attach a lens to it. So it’s irrelevant to invest in a slower/limited camera -over a tried & true DSLR- when it’s TRULY misadvertised as being portable.

    The more mirrorless latest & greatest comes out of Sony/Panny/Olympus/Fuji, the more expensive they become. Less likely to be purchased by consumers. While Canon/Nikon can simply retaliate over the mirrorless hype by lowering the price of their DSLR lineup.

    DSLR WINS.

    • Will

      I second this, as much as I am interested in mirrorless cameras they come off as a ripoff to me. Sony’s lens line up is a joke 3 years into the Nex system. I shoot entirely with primes and the primes I would use are either absurdly expensive or just not offered, or they just suck. Then, on the 43’s side of things, tons of awesome primes but any of the decent bodies are $800-1000. I can go buy a Nikon d600 with a full frame sensor for $1500 now if I’m patient on a deal and then most primes run the gamut of what primes cost on mirrorless.

      If I go mirrorless I really want an EVF, but why go for EVF models when I can buy a d3200 for $350 and get a bigger sensor?

      • peevee

        ” I can buy a d3200 for $350″

        Where? I see it for $550 new. New E-PM2 costs less, weighs MUCH less, makes just as good pictures (well, better JPGs), shoots twice as fast and stabilizes all your primes. Add a viewfinder, even VF2 (let alone VF4), and it also has much bigger, brighter and tilting viewfinder covering 100% of the scene and working for video too, unless the junk in D3200.

      • peevee

        And I wonder what prime are you going to use to cover 24mm equivalent on D3200, let alone at f/2. ;)

    • Mike

      An Olympus PEN with 20m f/1.7 is awesomely compact and pocketable.

      However, they’re not convincing anyone when a pen is $1000 and a 20mm f/1.7 is $500. You can have a Nikon DSLR with 35mm f/1.8 for less than half the price.

      Olympus and Panasonic need to stop the ridiculous pricing.

      • peevee

        I agree about stupid prices on some cameras and most m43 lenses, but to be fair, $1000 E-P5 (idiotic price point, true) is not the only PEN, to get to the quality and controls of Rebel T5i you only have to buy something like GX1 ($200, no stabilization just like Rebel), and even E-PL5 will destroy it with better sensor and IBIS. Also, 20/1.7 is not $500, it is about $330, at least in the US. 25/1.4 is $500, Oly 17/1.8 is $450, but how much is 22/1.8 for the Rebel? ;) Or should it be f/1.5 to match the noise quality of the E-PL5 sensor? ;) Oh, wait.

    • joel

      I think the problem is mirrorless is still maturing, so they charge more to cover r&d, the DSLRs are just releasing the same thing with one or two previously crippled features enabled, no real improvement involved, so no real r&d costs to cover…

      • Jame

        Wow, you have no idea about the DSLRs.

        • Vlad

          And you do, huh?

        • Anonymouse

          You new to DSLRs?

    • Well… You’re wrong.

      Bite me.

      Have you seen camera bags with actual gear in them?

    • Macca

      Bite Me: You are making the fundamental error of equating “portability” with “pocketability”. These are actually two different things. A PEN with attached lens is significantly more portable than a DSLR with attached lens, even though neither system is pocketable. In my own case, I used to shoot Nikon DSLR and once I got my hands on a PEN the Nikon was gone forever because of the portability factor. The Nikon system required me to carry two or three times as much weight for no appreciable advantage in image quality.

    • Jame

      DSLRs still have something that the mirror-less (except Nikon 1) cannot touch:

      Continuous AF.

      Then they also lack:

      1. Good quality zoom lenses.
      2. Quality fast (ultra) wide-angle lenses.
      3. Quality teles and super-teles primes.

      If all mirror-less want to do is to cater for the consumer market, they likely don’t need the lenses. But if mirror-less want to grow and be taken seriously by many serious photographers, they still have work to do on their lenses.

      • Well, continous AF is a joke if you have just 9 or 11 AF points. And a usable number of AF points already means midrange or high-end body.

        On the other hand M43 already has high quality zoom lenses: 12–35í2.8 and 35–100í2.8. And a really good wide angle zoom: 7–14/4. definitely not cheap glasses but thwe are really good. And quality tele primes already are on the road.

        If something can be done well on mirrorlesses: quality wide angle lenses and qualuty teles! Just be patient.

    • Ulric

      Does that mean that the camera I have in my pocket right now is not pocketable? I wish I had known that before I put it there.

    • Vlad

      Your whole argument is flawed.
      “You can’t pocket a mirrorless… it’s TRULY misadvertised as being portable.”
      As someone already pointed out, these are two different things.
      There are plenty of very cheap mirrorless options and let’s see how long Canikon can lower their prices, lol.

    • Rchard

      No, most consumers are actually quite studpid. They buy lots of Canon 1100D and Nikon D3100 and think they have bought a pro level camera and like magic they now all can take pro level pictures. :-)

      • digifan

        +10000
        Those are also camera’s that can’t reliably follow focus.

    • peevee

      “The consumer is not stupid: You can’t pocket a mirrorless ILC once you attach a lens to it.”

      Yes, you can pocket Pana GF/Oly E-PM with 14mm, 20mm, Oly 17mm (both actually) or 14-42 PZ. And you can pocket 40-150 or 9-18 in another pocket, and use it when needed.
      Depends on a pocket, of course.
      But you don’t have to pocket anything, your neck feels differently with the camera on a strap too. And no problems with back/front focus, no video in VF (and no AF in video). People still buying Rebels in droves ARE stupid and simply do not know better.

    • Anonymous

      No sir you are ignorant. An E-M5 with pancake prime easily fits a coat pocket, with the pana 14-42pz it just fits a larger one. An E-PMx, GFx or GXx with the 14-42pz easily fits. Many people don’t believe that until they actually try.

  • HappyVan

    Guess I won the debate?

    • This should be posted on Nikon1rumors.com or the Nikon1 community forums because in all likelihood the Nikon1 has skewed the figures, along with Sony slowing down their NEX releases and marketing, Samsung NX and Canon EOS M failing along with Pentax Q not being able to break out of Japan.

      These figures do not reflect any kind of trend at Micro Four Thirds, Olympus have already stated that their mirrorless yearly and Q4 figures were up by 25% and 15%.

      • Charles

        Exactly my thoughts :)

        • SteveO

          +1

      • Anonymous

        yep ,doubling their losses from 9 billion in 2011 to 18 billion in 2012 was awesome business for Olympus lol

  • Rob

    Quite concerning really. A think a bit of marketing maybe in order for the camera companies. I wonder if Canon’s insipid attempt at the mirrorless market hurt sales. If so, then it was a great move for them, and they should keep the consumers on dSLRs.

  • bousozoku

    I would assume that “The Americas” would be North, Central, and South America, not just the U.S.A.

    • V4Vendetta

      America its a continent, EEUU has appropriated of the the name.

      • BLI

        “America” or “The Americas” is a continent, just like “Europe” is a continent. America originally meant South America and is named after Amerigo Vespucci who participated in explorations around year 1500. The practice of referring to citizens of USA as Americans (Wikipedia lists “American” as demonym for citizens of USA) is correct in the sense that they live in America, but inaccurate as citizens of Canada to Argentina also are Americans. The same goes for Europe: Wikipedia lists “European” as demonym for people who live in the European Union, even though many Europeans live outside of EU. Btw. The word/name “Europe” comes from Phoenician mythology (i.e. Lebanon) and may refer to sunset = the West, similar to that Levant (Latin root) means sunrise = the East (e.g. Eastern Mediterranean, or even Eastern Spain).

        • lorenzaccio

          Europa was a nymph kidnapped by Zeus, who, for the grand occasion, took the shape of a white bull. But yes, the name was born before the Greeks rewrote its history…
          (besides: Phoenicians were a semitic people, but they were absorbed by the many populations which conquered north Africa, including Romans. No current people can be referred as being the veritable descendent of Phoenicians…)

  • rurounix

    I’m thinking, much like the current trend of larger and larger screen sizes for smart phones, that there is a certain bias towards “bigger being better” colouring the purchasing philosophy of consumers. The fact that the smaller form factors of the nascent mirrorless cameras (think Panny’s GF1 and Olympus PEN camera line) were largely designed to resemble P&S in order to appeal to buyers looking for a kind of bridging cameras is now coming back to bite them in the ass. There is a reason why the newest G cameras from Panny (G6 and GH3 in particular) have decidedly gone against portability and produced more DSLR-esque camera bodies in order to meet this new demand for bigger cameras.

    • tomas

      I dont think the size of camera(small like P&S) is problem and cause less sales…
      I have couple of friends who has DSLR and I didnt see them bringin DSLR on any of their trip with the kids …and when I ask why …they said my DSLR is huge…dont want to take it on the trip …and they do photo by smartphone
      I think the problem is price…presently the trend seems to me that the prices are increasing…so people are waiting 2-3 models to buy new stuff

      Other problem is marketing…I only see advertisements for Nikon 1 …which is overpriced and small senzor.

      The last thing is that primes are relatively expensive…I would say if Oly bundle 45mm f1.8 …they could do more sales as it is great portrait lens …and is capable of greate pictures …which would satisfy newcomers very fast & easily …and such happy customer will make them marketing for free

      • Will

        Yes I agree, price needs to come down 15% – 20% on nearly all mirrorless cameras and bump up the marketing, I just spent a year in Japan and they are everywhere, you walk into a camera shop and they are more mirrorless than DSLR it seems, or at least equal. I walk into shops in Australia and NZ and it’s DSLR and a couple older generation mirrorless sold at far above normal prices.

        I think in the end mirrorless will win, you still see tourists walking around with huge DSLR’s and anyone who knows anything about photography knows it’s overkill to the extreme, nearly all are using the kit lens with this huge camera and i’ll bet most have no clue asto the relationship between aperture, shutter speed and ISO even. Once the general public are a bit more informed, which can take years of slow progress, I think mirrorless almost has to win over everyone.

        Get the marketing out there and drop the price a tad, right now to most people it’s like choosing between a “pro” camera and a “funky modern” camera.

        • SteveO

          Good post, I agree.

          Mirrorless has been invisible in the US due to lack of advertising. A TV ad campaign with a touch of humor showing the difference between a tourist with a “family truckster” DSLR qith travel lens and a svelte E-PL5 of GF-6 with kit lens that makes the point DSLR image quality, compact sized body, $500 price point would win a lot over. The old routine of clunky looking guy (with SLR) and young hip girl or guy (with mFT) wouldn’t hurt either.

    • DSLR sales are no great shakes at the moment with lacklustre releases, a tight worldwide economy and extreme market pressures on prp photographers hardly anyone is upgrading their cameras.

      DSLRs aimed at ordinary consumers don’t have enough me too value and any previously aspiring consumers has already bought their DSLR and been largely frustrated using them. In the UK the only camera chains Jessops and Jacobs have gone belly up, PC World, Currys and Argos have scaled back their DSLR offerings at the expense of Mirrorless. Spermarkets have stopped selling DSLRs altogether in their bricks and mortar.

      Likewise point and shoot sales have absolutely tanked in the UK and worldwide.

  • S&S

    Here in the USA at least the biggest reason why mirrorless isn’t doing better is that it isn’t available. Go to Walmart or similar store and you might find one or two mirrorless products{might}. On the other hand you will find at least a couple of the Canon/Nikon DSLRs plus an extra lens or two. Worse is that advertising is all but none existent for mirrorless. I have to explain to everybody about my PENs and what m4/3 is, that includes other photographers.

    • JHCCAZ

      I completely agree with this. In most large USA stores (Walmart, Target, Best Buy, Frys, Sears, Costco, Sams Club) it seems that M43 is either not present at all, or represented by perhaps one example – and the salesmen are either uninformed or negative about them. Sony NEX has some presence. Nikon 1 is available and was advertised heavily at launch, but this is not the best example of mirrorless.

      By comparison, DSLRs (Nikon and Canon mostly) are everywhere in a wide range of models, and salespeople recommend them by default.

      Panasonic and Samsung are no strangers to the game of retail shelf space, but it doesn’t appear that they are putting much money or effort into their cameras as compared to TVs and Blu-Ray players. Panasonic also has a bad reputation with camera stores because of their wholesaling policies; Olympus does better with that.

      Overall, M43 marketing in the USA is via internet and magazines, and so reaches only photo hobbyists who actively research the market themselves. Other consumers will wake up to mirrorless only when Canon and Nikon decide to produce and market seriously competitive models; then you’ll wonder why everyone thinks it’s a brand new idea.

      • kodachromeguy

        Also consider, for the US market, most ordinary buyers (not photo enthusiasts) opt for the safe choice. They go to the big box store and see Canon and Nikon DSLRs. Their neighbors buy Nikon and Canon. So that is what they buy, regardless of the limitations of the low-end kit zoom. It is the easy and safe purchase. Without significantly more advertising and education, Olympus and Panasonic will not make many inroads in the USA.

    • c.d.embrey

      As recently as about a year ago non of the Southern California stores carried either Olympus or Panasonic. I could rent Profoto lighting from two stores within 10 miles of me, but I couldn’t buy Olympus or Panasonic cameras in Los Angeles, Orange or San Diego counties!! One of the BIG problems with Panasonic was that you couldn’t buy batteries, even from B&H.

      Also poor ergonomics hurt Olympus sales. I know some people think Retro is cool, but if you’re a pro who hold a camera in their hand all-day then a GH2/3 or a Nex-6/7 is the camera for you. Yes, I know you can buy accessory grips but you shouldn’t need to.

      BTW Fuji X and Sony NEX are available at local stores.

    • @S&S
      USA is just 16.8% of the world digital camera market (not 33% as some have claimed) and is largely mature.

    • Ken

      Second that. I couldn’t find E-PL5 anywhere in Vancouver, BC. It’s like whole m43 lineup doesn’t exist. Some stores don’t have a single Oly camera. BestBuy has 1-2 E-PM2’s every once in a while.

  • Maybe only for us aficionados there is a difference between smartphones and mirrorless (convenience and instanteity trump).

    So most consumers prefer a camera phone and a “real” camera, and not two convenient cameras.

  • Jack

    Take your pick:
    1) Slow economy and high unemployment/underemployment rates in the US and EU, especially in the younger demographic where mirrorless is more heavily marketed to in Asia.
    2) Lack of marketing – Apple and Samsung spend billions to convince you to buy their devices and make it easy to demo them in person. What has Olympus and Panasonic done lately?
    3) Oversupply and the ridiculous 6-12 month product cycles for bodies. Why buy the newest now when it will be sold for fire sale prices in a year and you’re be screwed on any resale value?
    4) High prices – yen dropped 25-30% against the dollar in 1 year, yet prices remain relatively the same. Who wants to drop $800-900 on a lens with only 1 year warranty, no lens hood (which will set you back another $75-90), from companies whose financials inspire no confidence as to their future support?
    5) The last camera you bought is good enough and it’s getting harder to justify upgrading for diminishing returns.

    • Ryan

      ^^^^^^^^All of this!

    • say click take a pick

      My EPL1 still doing fine in IR
      My GF1 still doing fine
      My GH2 still has no upgrade w mar sensor
      My EPM2 (second owner) still has no uwa quality pancake, like 9 or 10mm f/2.8 or 4.0

      Still no 100-150/2.8 macro
      Still no 100-400L eqiv. for M43
      Still no 150/2.8 OIS from Panny
      Still no 42.5/1.2 OIS from Panny

      And last but not least:

      in my country EP5 price is simply a joke
      VF-2 still working :)

      Thank you O&P

    • I agree with 2), 3) and 4)

      +6) miserable availability – in our city (100 000 ppl) there were only two E-PL3 last month for the whole city? (heh). No OMD, no E-PL5. No Panas at all. Lenses only for order! Sales rep. told me he sell 2 PENs a year!

      Still there are a lot of radio spots for DSLR. The last one: “What!? A hi-quality DSLR only for $450? Blabblabla… What are you waiting for?” I havent heard any for mirrorless. Very sad.

    • ” Why buy the newest now when it will be sold for fire sale prices in a year and you’re be screwed on any resale value?” not massively important… you don’t see swathes of people reselling their cameras on ebay,gumtree and craig list, most people buy cameras to actually use them and do not actively think of the resale value except for a tiny minority.

      • lorenzaccio

        Except for a tiny minority living in the USA.
        In Europe very few people resell their gear.
        However, we have witnessed cameras dropping to one third (1/3rd!) of its original value in less than two years. As far as I am concerned, since I already have a reflex, I can wait another six months or so in order to have a currently expensive Olympus camera (e.g. epl5) for much less than its value.
        This is the message that is becoming commong: you wait, and they firesale, then you can have it for very cheap.
        As I said, I have a reflex, so I can already take pics while waiting…

        • Vlad

          “In Europe very few people resell their gear.” What?

          • lorenzaccio

            Well, Germany aside, I have never found such a huge resale market in European countries. Nothing comparable to the States or Japan, at least, where you can find almost-new stuff, three-six months after the release, for half of the original price.
            E.g.: in Tokyo Bic Camera has a huge “outlet” (six floors) of used gear (in Ikebukuro) with the store warranty on it. You can find just whatever, there, from veeery old stuff, to “almost new in box” goodies. Anything comparable in Europe?
            Sure: Ebay blabla, but it’s not the same…

            • Vlad

              Well, an outlet and reselling is different stuff :)
              Yes, in Tokyo they have plenty of used gear stores, but I believe that has a lot to see with the size of the city and I haven’t seen 6 floors of used gear anywhere, but I also haven’t visited every shop. I’ve lived in France and Finland and both have very decent resale markets. Admittedly, in North America people do tend to resell more. But “very few” people in Europe? I’ll meet you in the middle. :)

              • lorenzaccio

                mmh, I guess now we are starting to understand each other.
                However I would like to make some points clear: for some reason “outlet” here means “second-hand” (ok, at least for that store). Don’t ask me why because I don’t know. Anyhow there are similar stores all over Japan.
                I lived in Finland as well: very nice for second hands computers, less so for cameras (unless it is some collectible item, like Russian cameras).
                OTOH in Italy second-hand market almost does not exist (you buy at your own peril). I was mainly thinking to that market while writing…

  • Mumbly

    I guess the “mirrorless hype” never really began in the EU and USA. Sure, there was a time when mirrorless sales were doing pretty well here too, but even then, DSLR-sales were still doing better. That’s because Europeans and Americans are a rather conservative bunch of people. I know a lot of people who still consider CSCs to be some kind of toy and even here on this very website, one can still read comments from people dreaming of full-frame sensors and/or fast primes. And this despite of the fact that FT/mFT-cameras are delivering an exceptional image quality meanwhile and that zoom lenses have made huge progresses in terms of optical quality. Hey, there are even some people here who still want an optical viewfinder in the CSC of their dreams — although modern EVFs (like that from the VF-4) can match optical viewfinders from entry-level and partly middle-class DSLRs!!!

    Another point is that — at least here in Germany — retailers still prefer selling DSLRs than CSCs to their customers. If you look e.g. at the special offers from MediaMarkt and Saturn (Germanys biggest consumer electronics discounters), Canon and Nikon are heavily promoted while Olympus and Panasonic sometimes even can’t be found in the prospects. The same applies to TV commercials. I haven’t seen a m43-commercial for a long time on TV, while one can see Nikon- and Canon-commercials several times a day (especially the Nikon D5300-commercial).

    If any hype is over, than it is the camera market in general. Common people are using their smartphones to take pictures and/or record movies (especially since most smartphones deliver a more than respectable image quality) while amateur photographers resp. hobbyists and professionals are already equipped and won’t change their equipment every two years. So the camera market in general has reached some kind of saturation; there is no more significant number of first-time buyers to equip and that won’t change IMO anytime soon!

  • One must understand that Jap. companies operate in a World camera saturation context. Shrinking volumes, rising prices, All which is said is Western-centric, while the West is a minority market,

    In my tourist city I keep seeing young Asians with Pens so I am not worried- I also keep reading here, and elsewhere AH clamouring for more one thousand bucks’ lenses, while it is exactly the opposite the market needs: cheap, sharp Sigmas.
    It is also clear that camera is being dematerialized, but AH behave as if they still were at the beginning of last century, with Zeiss providing the heavy optics. So lens whores have only themselves to thank if they are pushed into irrelevance.

    How come no fast zooms for m4/3 this month, yet? LOL!

  • Andrew

    They need to hire me to market their cameras. I know how to do it. They don’t

  • andrew

    Prices of mirrorless systems in the EU are crazy high. It is better to order something from the USA/Asia and get it shipped here.
    And if lot of people are doing the same, I wonder how much of the mirrorless systems sale in Asia comes from European sales.

    • PLI

      In my country it’s no longer good to buy pricey products outside of EU. VAT, customs, delivery fee and fee for processing of customs, it all increases the price so that it almost equals the lowest prices here.

  • TWO THINGS MFT NEEDS IN THE STATES

    1. MARKETING
    2. PRICE.

    • Macca

      Price?

      You can buy an E-P3 with kit lens for USD $369 from several different retailers at the moment, and all of them offer free shipping.

      • Will

        Yep, an E-P3…

        It’s a great camera no doubt, although using a sensor from about 5 years ago, either way, it’s older generation and therefore not really part of this, I mean hell, you can buy any camera or technology that is older and has generations above it for really cheap.

        We are talking about new items.

  • Karsten Seiferlin

    I’m not sure whether your headline that mirrorless cameras are doing (particulalrly) bad outside Japan is correct. The decrease for mirrorless cameras is much smaller than for SLRs. That means, compared to the technology they compete with, mirrorless cameras ware doing well.

  • Karsten Seiferlin

    I’m not sure whether your headline that mirrorless cameras are doing (particulalrly) bad outside Japan is correct. The decrease for mirrorless cameras is much smaller than for SLRs. That means, compared to the technology they compete with, mirrorless cameras ware doing well.

  • Karsten Seiferlin

    I’m not sure whether your headline that mirrorless cameras are doing (particulalrly) bad outside Japan is correct. The decrease for mirrorless cameras is much smaller than for SLRs. That means, compared to the technology they compete with, mirrorless cameras ware doing well.

  • Jankoff

    “Is the mirrorless hype over? What has to be done to bring mirrorless cameras back to success?” To make E-550/E-650/E-50/E-7.

    • Ross

      Maybe.

    • sorry my inglish

      my ZD11-22, summilux25, ZD50macro and ZD50-200 SWD like this

  • To many, there isn’t enough price difference to warrant switching. This is mostly true when talking about the only M43 cameras and lenses worth buying (GH3, E-M5, E-P5, and all of Oly’s primes). Though they are good, they aren’t cheap enough for casual consumers and are good enough for many seasoned pros.

  • pixnat

    This is absolutely normal, nothing to worry about : lousy economy + saturated market cannot bring something else.

    • spam

      +1, you can’t really expect anything but a reduction with the current problems in the world economy. Also, most consumers don’t know (or care) about the differences beween mirrorless and dSLR and buy Canon and Nikon as they always did. Mirrorless will take off when Canon and Nikon are ready to move their entry level models to mirrorless – which they’ll probably do when they feel the technology is ready.

  • Pete

    1st:
    Im Germany you won’t find much mirrorless in the big shops (Saturn, Media Markt), they show and sell Nikon and Canon.
    2nd:
    Where are the new lenses? No slow zoom again….
    3rd:
    Magazines like CT, Colorfoto, FoMag like to give strange tests. The brand they like are tested with super lenses, Olympus & co. with the cheep kit-zoom.
    4th:
    Canon and Nikon have the best system and everybody believes, he/she need the possibility to buy a 10.000$ 600mm lens and a 5000$ body. Why?
    5th:
    The big kamera counts, not the brilliant picture, strange.

    • @Pete
      in the UK mirrorless is near 30% of the market.
      Olympus has full page adverts in every single photography monthly magazine in the UK at this very moment (except Nikon user) easily verified.

    • Reinhard

      I´m from Germany and it´s really like this: Enter the usual Tec-Store (MediaM, Saturn) and you will find a Palette with 1100D or D3200 and one (!) G5 or OMD behind glas…

      If you ask for lenses they can sell 2.8 Zooms for Ca/Ni directly, sometimes they also have an 2.8/300 or an 1.2/1.4 / for the red and yellow People. But lenses for 43? On Special order waiting 2-3 weeks. Then I can buy directly from Amazon…

      If you go to older photostores (not the new pro stores like Calumet) you will find a lot of stuff for m43, but they are often selling for list Price. Then every part could be really expensive and as result they sell not the amount of pieces like the big consumer stores.

      That´s (today) the Advantage of Canon and Nikon: They millions of cameras and lenses, so the could be cheaper. But I´m still satisfied with my GH3 (coming from 5DII): My backpack weights several kg less then before and Canon will never pay for badache because of too much weight…

      • Anonytrackball

        Its the camera of the day syndrome. Visitors here keep denying it, but go to many camera shops and all major national retail outlets an get offered, demonstrated and sold the camera of the day. No matter what you ask for you will be shown and sold the camera of the day. The only exception being when you want a top end high mark up camera.

  • I think I just saw the first Kodak, milk white with black zoom, in the hands of a Chinese girl tourist in Rome. Does anybody know if they are already selling in China?

    The Light from the East: cheap plastic m4/3 white toys to be had for a song. Kodak redux while Oly with the E-P5 for Money Launderers aims at being a Leica, LOL!

    • tofino

      What effect do you think Kodak might have on Olympus and Panasonic?

  • PLI

    1. M43 marketing is pretty bad in my country. Oly is a little bit better with PEN here, but Panasonic is completely lost in m43. Very often I see advertisements for crappy Nikon 1, or sometimes for NEX. But Nikon 1 simply rules advertisements here.

    Interestingly, my local Panasonic website do not list G6/GF6 camera, just one PR article! Olympus already has E-P5 in the list as new product.

    2. Pricing should be lower, especially for bodies. Otherwise Canikon will continue to rule the market here with Nikon 1, EOS-M and entry-level DSLRs. Also Samsung has decent pricing here.

  • Anonymoose

    “What has to be done to bring mirrorless cameras back to success?”

    How about stop creating extremely small cameras with few buttons and no viewfinder?

  • Kiki

    I live in France and I never saw an Pana or olympus advertising on TV but always canon EOS m or nikon

    And prices are over in EU

    • PLI

      +1

    • say click take a pick

      +2

    • Juan

      Exactly the same happens here in Spain. Nikon 1 got marketing campaigns but I never saw anything like that for any other mirroless system. And in the biggest tec-shops the offert of MFT is still quite ridiculous. Anyway I think we should have the chance here to take a look at the real data for just MFT sales, since I suspect they are quite diferent from the overall mirroless sales. Currently the main problem for MFT at least in Europe I think is that nobody knows still how really good it is! Even among the real fans of photography here in Spain is quite unknown so far. But I guess the change will come from the word of mouth from MFT users in internet forums rather than from marketing in TV, radio, shops, etc. Any user who has the chance talks about the MFT because the system has really overcome the midrange reflex in many things and its much more confortable to use. Unless something really strange happens in the next years I think that its a matter of time that MFT get the position it deserves. Anyway I insist, I’d like to see the data just for MFT to keep talking about it…

  • Cyril

    I wanted to buy a EPM2 for my wife in France…but i have not found.
    I finish by order one at B&H.

    In french store price are too hight and you can only find old model.

    • BLI

      Did you go to FNAC? In Spain, FNAC sells m43 cameras.

  • Epidote

    I still believe as a salesman that Mirrorless constructors have done major mistakes

    – “Hybrid term” is ugly : It is a commercial error, if it is between product A and product B it cannot be better than A or B

    – Stupid args in communication, can they concentrate on element as simple as “Without Mirror, you save space and money”. Lenses are in the nature men, the market can only move “slowly”. People who have lenses cannot change their mind quickly.

    – EVF is the key, i cannot sell camera at 600 if someone need at least 200 more to be able to shoot without screen. This is a non sense IMHO. Constructors seem to believe contrary, they add functions for the screen.

    After some months, why people prefer DSLR vs MirrorLess

    – Many “DSLR” owners don’t even know that their is “mirror” inside, some of them even prefer to shoot with “screen” .. when i ask them why they need a DSLR if they want to shoot with screen, they look at me as an “Alien” salesman. 90% of people think that “reflex” means “it goes as fast as a reflex” when i ask them “Do you know what means Reflex in Reflex Camera”

    – People don’t know about Photography but consider themselves expert in “optical engineering” after reading some tests.
    They want the bigger and nicer “lens” but they don’t understand that EOS is overpriced and oversized for their Rebel. And for me that’s where Canikon are good … they sale overpriced lenses for their low budget products.

    – A lot of camera are sold as gift … people don’t take risk … they buy “Bigger is Better”. We are in “crisis”, people buy “classic”. Daddy was owner of a Reflex Camera, i need a Reflex Camera. This is the “Leica” effect. You cant fight against it.

    • @Epidote
      Micro Four Thirds is doing very well in gift sales, with lots of people buying their partners/girlfriends/wives mft cameras because they can share the lenses and they are easy to use….

      • notyouagain

        dude , do you never tire of making an ass of yourself , I have seen hardly any mFT cameras in the wild here in the USA in fact I have seen more skinny Texans than I have mFT. The initial rush at mFt was in part down to DSLR owners looking for a small but still decent quality set up to go along with their DSLR.mFT will never go above what it peaked at a while back , claiming otherwise in spite of the actual evidence showing otherwise is just plain dumb. I don’t see your need to jump on every single factual post with your fantasy interpretation , the USA and EU are the two largest camera markets in the world . If you have ever been to Asia you will clearly see that it is camera phones that dominate the market especially amongst the young.

        Mirrorless has hit it’s saturation point for the majority of users including those coming from P&S and those using it as a back up kit it is good enough making upgrading to often overpriced mFT gear less and less desirable .The truth is that even low end DSLR models like the D5200 or its predecessor the D5100 delivers better results than the best mFT . I spend most of my free time on mountain trails so mFT suits me fine, you are making a classic mistake assuming what you want should be what everyone wants I do not need mFT to be top of the hill as long as it keeps going , you on the other hand have some obsession with defending it to the bitter end , which is full on bizarre
        Norm

        • FACTS STRAIGHT
          USA is just 16.8% of the current market and is forecast to shrink further. The USA and EU are not the largest markets. Me thinks you have spent too much time on the trails.
          I think you’ll find it is DSLRs that have reached their saturation, the only way now is for them now is down, Canikon will be on very unstable ground when they try to transition their Pro DSLR users to their Mirrorless offferings in 2-3 years time.

          • boomboom

            haha! notyouagain is the coward jim stirling

          • tofino

            Latest CIPA data show Americas were 25% of Jan-Apr DSLR shipments, but only 16% of mirrorless shipment. US GDP is greater than combined GDP of China & Japan. That’s a large amount of wealth to simply write off and pretend it isn’t important.

          • Dukratus

            Seriously man I don’t get it what’s with you and micro four thirds…Is any company actually paying you to jump to every single comment that remotely says anything “against” or isn’t 100% favourable to your system of choice??? Been reading these forums for quite a while and you’re like the “Dom Quixote” of Micro Four Thirds, every time someone says anything that isn’t so positive there you come along as a shining night in armour af it to protect a denzel in distress. Actually start to believe your either being paid by someone to “stalk” these forums or quite simply you have way too much free time in your hands. Enjoy the system of your choice and get a new hobby to be honest.

        • Anonymous

          Found your reply rude; no need for that. Different people have different opinions.

          • that seems to be normal when entering a forum; just like driving a car, it reveals the bad side of the homo erectus in all its heavenly glory.

            • Paul Latouche

              Ulli,
              I think you got something there. That this forum is populated with homo erectus instead of homo sapiens must explain the aggressive posts.
              (not that I know any homo erectus outside here – perhaps they are nice people after all!)

        • JimD

          Your words.
          ” I spend most of my free time on mountain trails so mFT suits me fine,”
          So the marketing people are not doing it right for m43. The gear is sound, the marketing is wrong.

  • Jankoff

    In my previous post I wrote (citing first): “Is the mirrorless hype over? What has to be done to bring mirrorless cameras back to success?” To make E-550/E-650/E-50/E-7. Let me explain further. Having two mFT lenses and several excellent and interesting FT lenses, I would like to use the latter on a DSLR with a powerful sensor. I can’t. If Oly launch a DSLR with the new sensor, I will stay with them and maintain both systems, FT & mFT. If they don’t I will partly migrate to Pentax with, e.g., the new Sigma 18-35 f1.8 and use mFT OR FT as a backup camera. If they do, the new Oly FT will be the main camera. This is a better solution for both Oly and me. And I believe, there are many who reason in the same vein.

  • MarcoSartoriPhoto

    Because thanks to Instagram people realize they can take a crappy pic at finger nails, underexposed sunset, or whatever, and have their 15 minutes of “fame”.
    With their 100 dollars/euros smartphone.
    And they would never print any of their photos, if not in small size.
    Not to mention that nowadays photojournalists have a hard time (San Francisco SunTime dropped 28 photogs, one was a Pulitzer Award winner, a couple of days ago).

  • Sunny

    What has to be done to bring mirrorless cameras back to success?

    Maybe we should stop the euro crisis?

    I think many people in Europe have other problems than buying a new camera at the moment.

  • Dogbytes

    Micro Four Thirds continues to aim at the low-mid sector of the market which is probably the area hit hardest by the current economic situation. Unfortunately this is also the sector which suits it best. I love my Olympus outfit (OM-D, E-P1 and 7 lenses) but if I could afford it I’d have a Leica S! The system’s advantages, compared to full-frame and larger sensors, will always come down to portability and not Image quality.

    That said, the present generation of MFT has more than adequate image quality for its market sector and this means that I for one have no reason to buy a new camera.

  • anteportas

    Old news.

    Thom Hogan already analyzed quite well the current trends in the industry. These CIPA Numbers shown in the graphic only reflects the size of shipments, not the number of sales in specific markets. So: It only shows that companies already reduced production numbera to adress the decreasing numbers of sales which obviously causes a “terrible” overstock n the markets – especially in the US, but also in Europe. Actual numbers of sales may be even worse though. As a european i think the hefty price discounts in the us show exactly this.

    I also think the whole mirrorless stuff is caught in a market trap: For a single photographic system it doesn’t meet all requirements of serious photographers (IQ, AF-C, Handling, roughness etc – which one depends on the chosen system), for a second system it is still too expensive.

    I think that’s the reason why a lot people right now carefully rethink their investment strategies in mirrorless equipment. Like me who owned a complete mft equipment for a year – and sold it.

  • cuius

    Because pricewise they should be named “mirrormore”.

    Perceived value is the problem – a camera with less mechanical parts, which with today’s manufacturing costs should cost less than DSLR, is selling for more because there isn’t the volume

  • It seems the overriding reason for poor sales of micro-4/3 gear is the lack of availability, followed by a high price (compared to DSLR cameras and lenses). Over here in South Africa, I can buy a Canon 600mm lens right now (if I had the cash for it), but I can’t buy ANY Panasonic lenses here – not a one!

  • fongios

    In europe we earn less money than in usa but we still have highers prices. That might explain a lot…

    • PLI

      Someone here already mentioned the difference that in US electronics is cheap but things that you need for life are expensive, and in EU it’s vice versa.

      • sending things worldwide seems to be the most expensive thing in the United States..

  • Over the weekend, I was doing my financials for last year and it came out that I spend around $9000 on MFT camera gear.
    Mid last year I was close to getting a 5D Mark III with the 3 usual L-lenses, but then decided to get the E-M5 after Canon customer service pissed me off big time.
    Starting with the kit lenses, I already got pictures like this ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/snkr_em5/7572881578/in/set-72157630367704452 ). Then I went berserk and bought one prime after the other and heaps of accessories as well and to be honest, given the low weight and high quality of the gear I have acquired within only 12 months, I am a) not regretting a single dollar spent and b) won’t regret that I went down the Olympus MFT road and didn’t get a DSLR. I am already looking forward to buying the rumoured higher-class OM-D later this year and will continue buying Olympus lenses.
    So if one is not only looking at the price, but also at quality and weight, which is especially important if you need to carry your stuff around then MFT is actually a great deal.

    • I concur. The OMD is so great little camera! And easy to get to the places where serious DSLR (full frame body) is obtrusive. Taking pictures has never been so fun and joy.

    • JimD

      Nice shots at taronga. I can’t get the animals an birds to keep still when I go.

  • Tulio

    Some people specially in the US an China ( emerging economies still associate DSLRs as being more professional than Mirrorless, even if they only shoot in auto with kit zooms.

    • Yes, but young Asians seem the prefer mirrorless, especially girls.

      Funnily I see that the reverse is at play with Western women tourists. They usually wear very phallic dSLR while their males have meek P&S.

      Do cameras follow gender wars? People always forget tht the target of the first mirrorless campaigns in Japan, were women.

      In fact it might well be tht in Asia they are the main customers. Typically though I see them using the kit lens.

      • Pixnat

        “Funnily I see that the reverse is at play with Western women tourists. They usually wear very phallic dSLR while their males have meek P&S.”

        Feminist power side effect?

        With movements like Femen developping, we should see, in the near future, tourist women walking with Bigmas (Sigma 50-500) in their hands ;-)

        Ahhh, those cultural differences will always be a nightmare for globalization gurus ;-)

      • lorenzaccio

        Asia where?
        In Japan (where I live) yes. It is exactly so. But there is a sound reason: m43 was so shamelessy discounted that until few months ago you could buy an epl1, brand new (old stock, sure), for 100-150 dollars. Less than the price of a compact camera.
        I bet Olympus was actually looking money on these sales.
        This is why 1) Olympus sold so many cameras in Japan (and recently also Panasonic adopted the same strategy, to gain visibility), and 2) Olympus camera division is still in deep passive, and nowhere near to recover.

        • lorenzaccio

          ooops, I meant “loosing money”, sorry ;)

          • My vantage point is only that I live in one of the main tourist destinations in Europe, so I can sample camera holders. Rome is also full of Asians, among those who visit the Coliseum they are the first.

            My impression is that the Japanese girls are the most advanced, hence many have m4/3. They have also dSLR, but think of luggage restrictions.

            Chinese are quite different, They are new money, and for now women with expensive cameras are the exception. Conversely men are v. proud of their Canon or Nikon dSLR. Very brand conscious, very mainstream.

            There must be Malays, Singaporeans, perhaps Thais. m4/3 are made there, so perhaps they have good prices, and their brands are respected. So it’s true: Asia is made of different countries, and cultures. Oly however has mentioned may times that the market for mirrorless is there. It is so true than around 2008 it let go its US marketing facilities go to the dogs. Europe, again is a patchwork.

            The main camera market is Germany, so that is why, in aggregators, you can find the lowest prices. Curiously the UK and England are fast developing. Is it because they have a photographic culture?
            IMHO there needs to be some fresh imagination to buy m4/3, and educated women, who don’t have phallic hangups, might be ideal customers, if prices at home are OK.

            That is why I also have high hopes for Kodak in China (and India?). It might be completely new ground by selling new cameras at basement prices. If this is starting now, then it makes more sense that O & P move to the upper tier.

            That is: money launderers :)

            • lorenzaccio

              Mmmh, I don’t really think this socio-cultural-geo-gender-whatever analysis make any sense, sorry :D

              Fact: in Japan m43 cameras were given away almost for free. As a consequence many bought them. Especially women, as m43 cameras are smaller and fit better in their hands (which is not always the case for Western women). And, humh, because many of them didn’t (and don’t) have much photographic background, so they just don’t care about a full-manual “semipro” camera (this is the way DSLR are referred to, here). Fully-automatic, small, inexpensive and colorful m43 (but also Pentax Q, LOL) was succesful for this reason. Sorry, but I met (and talked to) hundred of people who went that route, and I know how and why it happened. Almost the same in China, with the Samsung cameras being actually quite succesful there thanks to huge discounts. I know nothing about Thailand etc., but also Nikon and Sony produce there, and (knowing how East-Asian people think about one another) I am sure there is nothing even remotely similar to “brand-loyalty” towards Japanese products just because the production is outsourced in those countries.
              No, it’s not “culture” that made the bulk of m43 sales, but extreme low-price…

              (Besides: people who travel far, and for long, tend to carry smaller cameras. Especially to places not perceived as “safe”…)

              • Now YOU made a jumble.

                If anything long distance air travel selects happy few, so I see what the affluent of both sexes wear. You don’t.

                • GoogleTranslator

                  WTF?! What does your sentence mean?! Can you please stop using google translator when posting your thoughts?

                  • JimD

                    Actually I have no problem with what Amalric has noted and his “google” I understand well, you must have diminished senses.
                    I see a lot of tourists here in Sydney. Pen is popular with Asians and big tele lens Canikons with Caucasian women. Amalric is right.

                    • jeff

                      shuddap, kid.

                    • JimD

                      Welcome back Jeff. We missed your contributions to the survey on how not to behave in public. We can now continue with your demonstrations on how to attract attention but not be taken in any way other than a laugh, not at you, of course but with you! Ha Ha. If you were in Australia we would call you Tony Abbott, its Australian for disruptive and negative.

                    • jeff

                      And you never seem to shut your useless mouth. Surprise!

                    • JimD

                      have a nice day Jeff. If you can. You seem to want to spoil everything else. You are quite the expert now.

                    • jeff

                      Thanks, I will have a nice day, you know why? Cause I have a LIFE. That’s why I’m not here EVERYDAY like you, opening your yap, shill. Here’s 4 cents for your shill comments, go buy yourself a gummie bear, homie. LOL

                    • JimD

                      Inflation. When I was as junior as you but not quite so irrational. It was called 2 cents worth. But you have lots of money, so thanks, I will spend it wisely on something to remind me of you. I know, smelling salts.

                    • jeff

                      4 cents, homie.

                    • JimD

                      Jeff 2 cents is fine. Yes. I do stay at home. But don’t you worry, you just go out with the boys??

                • lorenzaccio

                  You seem NOT to have undestood what I wrote. Or, better, you pretend you didn’t understand.
                  Asian people do indeed buy the pen, as I have stated many times (please re-read), because here it was (and somewhere still is) given away almost FOR FREE. Not so difficult to get, is it?
                  (my fault: sometimes I think things are very easy to understand, but then again I have to remember that, heck, we are on the internet, which apparently lowers people’s reading and understanding skills to almost zero…)

                  • JimD

                    Have you looked at Japanese prices?

            • tofino

              Can’t say that I see the same in NYC, another major tourist location. I’ve seen many more Asian males than females with DSLRs (much greater Canon to Nikon ratio than I see non-Asians using). Perhaps the difference is that in NYC many Asians are first generation immigrants, which makes it difficult to identify those who are tourists.

        • bet all you like, you are wrong
          EPL1 was not the highest volume camera, did not artificially drive the stats, EPL3 did
          but if you want to cry about ‘dumping’ take your case to Nikon with D3100 and D5100

          • jeff

            Oh look, another m43 shill with another shill comment. LOL

  • Vivek

    Mirrorless cameras, due to their very nature of construction, are supposed to be cheaper, smaller and better.

    None of those are happening and they have stiff competition from compacts and dslrs.

    I embraced mirrorless when the revolutionary G1 showed up. Now, I am not so sure.

    Sub quality with a premium price tag and atrociously priced batteries.

    • Vlad

      Cheaper, smaller and better? Why would they be cheaper? Just because they don’t have an OVF? And they are indeed smaller.
      Stiff competition from DSLRs and compacts? DSLRs aren’t doing much better and compacts are doing way worse. Evrything up to pro DSLRs is having stiff competition from mirrorless.

      • lorenzaccio

        DSLR have many more components (especially: moving components) than mirrorless cameras. As the technology is more mature, they tend to be faster and perform better in any field. They have many more accessories, lenses, and better pro support.
        Hence, yes, mirrorless cameras, which cost less to manufacture (sensor excluded, at least for Sony and Fuji, but not for m43 cameras) could and should cost less.

        • Vlad

          As the technology is more mature, shouldn’t said components be getting cheaper? Sure, moving parts cost, OVFs cost, but I have never seen anyone provide the real prices of those. Here’s my view – even if an OVF is more expensive than an EVF, it is not going to be some huge difference and then the most expensive part of a camera is still the sensor. If we decide to not take into account 1.the fact that making a camera smaller also presents its difficulties and 2.that newer not mature technologies are used (PDAF on sensor), then a mirrorless camera should be only marginally cheaper to produce.
          As to the DSLRs being better in any field, I would disagree. They are still better in some fields.

          • lorenzaccio

            In fact mirrorless are quite much cheaper to produce. Not an order of magnitude cheaper, but enough to be sold cheaper than what they are now (compared to DSLR).

            Ok, size aside: in what mirrorless would be better than DSLR?

  • Erik

    Not saying it would save the sales, but there are just too many new mounts out there. If the 1,5 crop guys had been able to agree on a common mount earlier on, it would have been much more tempting to test the mirrorless waters. Of course it’s too late for that now…

    • Erik

      That being said, I think there is a lot of truth in Thom Hogan’s piece on ovf vs evf, the number and cost of parts.

    • Zune

      Anyway, good reason for choise m43, this is the large mirrorless system.

  • JWhite

    I think the only problem here is the inability to read a simple chart.

    A) If you look at the first chart, you’ll see that worldwide non-reflex shipped aprox 85% of the same period in last year. A slightly BETTER result than reflex cameras. This is the SHIPPING in the worldwide field.

    B)If you look at production, the production declined significantly, around 70% was produced when compared to last year in Non-reflex cameras, what this means is there will be less stock as production was adjusted to sales, it’s actually good news as companies will have better year end results.

    C) If you look at he breakdown by area, there is a clear downshift in sales in Europe and America when compared to Reflex cameras, but in the rest of the wrold Reflex decreased more than non-reflex.

    D) Overall there was a worlwide decrease in all systems, but we can’t say for that mirrorless is dropping more than reflex cameras, because the breakdown is NON-REFLEX VS REFLEX, and non-reflex is more than just mirrorless, so there’s a lot of cameras in there, including some well known duds. The only thing we can say for sure is that there were less cameras sold overall. Any mirrorless or m4/3 performance is pure speculation based on this chart.

    • MarcoSartoriPhoto

      That’s my thought too. Add to it the fact that most photos are only shown on the web, add to it that in a small smartphone screen it doesn’t matter if a photo was taken with a 5 megapixel smartphone camera or using a mirrorless or a DSLR, and you’ ll see how photography has changed.

      Why the vast majotity of people should upgrade to “pro” cameras, when they are already having fun with their smartphones and apps simulating films and filters?
      I have friends who bought a DSLR and kit lens after some months on photo-sharing social sites as Instagram, Twitter and Facebook.
      Their cameras are sleeping inside their boxes.

      Camera Companies are reducing their P&S cameras production and development, they should realize that photography world has changed much more than what they believe.

    • Vlad

      Finally, someone who can read.

      • JWhite

        Actually I made a mistake in the last point, the chart does list NON-REFLEX as all interchangeable lenses without a mirror, so technically all mirrorless Interchangeable lens cameras, but not all mirrorless cameras.I should have clarified that.

        • Vlad

          The point is that the decline in mirrorless is due to the current market. And it certainly isn’t that mirrorless are failing and DSLRs are amazing, like half of the posters here seem to believe.

      • jeff

        Youre trying too hard to keep your 4 cents a shill msg job at m43, buddy. Give it up, mirrorless are toys for idiots who love paying more for less.

    • JimD

      I like part B.
      This means that it can’t be shipped if its not produced. It then follows that production is now better tuned to sales and real expectation. It is no longer at the wishful thinking of a Mercedes chasing marketing expert at not much (self made guru in his own lunch break).
      This seems to indicate that big discounts in the US may be a thing of the past. It also means that the overall price structure may drop a little, via improved forecasting, production and less need to support super discounting.

      • JWhite

        Agreed. A company is not sustainable if they keep producing a lot more than what they sell, and keep a 30% stock ( judging by these numbers). The discounts are good for the consumer in a way, but if you want a camera that was just released, there are two options:
        a) you buy it and feel ripped off when it gets discounted two months later
        b) you don’t buy it waiting for the discounts and keep postponing because the life cycle is short and new cameras keep popping up.

        It’s a not a great business model…

        • JimD

          Production and more production is fine if your model dictates pallet dropping and giving 40% discounts on a 60% inflated price across a whole country or continent. But the business needs to be placed in that mode and position first, with careful model placement.
          Neither Oly or Pany have got model placement correct yet. As such mass advertising is wasted on top end pricing models to low end price buyers. It ain’t gona work.

  • Pgk

    I believe that mirrorless is a well earned success among (us) enthusiasts. However after two years with three different m43 cameras I went back to DSLR FF: I missed that heft and usability, smooth and sharp files. Like to take the back pack and tripod and go out making ART. Of course I also need that small, handy camera for other types of photography like street.
    Up-graders may still want impressive looking DSLR’s. That is what I hear. “A small mirrorless looks almost like a compact”, “with a Canikon DSLR I know I get the best”……
    Sony mirrorless A mount cameras will subsequently “look DSLR”.
    My guess is that CaNikon are looking at what Sony does. If Sony sales will go up, CaNikon will follow, with mirrorless DSLR look alikes gradually changing the design.
    My take is that mirrorless cameras will be a limited success until CaNikon priorities them.
    Asian countries does not have the same heritage/tradition as Europe and North America and does not hesitate to get well designed small cameras.

  • Mirrorless are still relatively expensive.

    On average, if I were to buy a mirrorless today, it would have to be all new or at best refurb.

    My colleague is on his second Canon xxxD. First Canon body was second hand. He has five lenses, but only the kit (from his second camera) is new, not second hand. He never paid more than 200€ for a lens. They are all crappy APS-C zooms (except the 50mm prime), but he still likes them all.

    At least to me it simply tells that there are simply more DSLR users. More users means more knowledge and free advertisement out there, more chances to trade the gear with your friends and colleagues – and also more second hand cheap gear. Not only mirrorless faces the usual inertia, but it also faces the price barrier since in the eyes of consumer it has to compete price-wise with s/h gear from eBay.

  • M.C.F

    There is no mystery here. Canon and Nikon have delayed and on their part successfully ruined the initiation of mirrorless. They decided it would be on their terms by bringing 2 questionable products that failed to show the strength of mirroless as a whole. Nikon with it’s smaller than it should be sensor Nikon 1 and Canon with it’s dissinterested at best entry. What do people expect? The masses buy what they recognize. Did somebody actually think Olympus or Fuji or Samsung or even Sony and Panasonic were capable of getting the attention of regular Joe photographer. Sure if they were buying a TV or cellphone, but a camera, without a mirror? No way, they want the gold seal of approval. Nikon/Canon on the front of it.

    • @M.C.F.
      If you think that was Nikon’s plan with their Nikon 1 system then it has been a very costly fail.
      4 years in expensive development.
      Total miss of it’s target market.
      Less than 1 million units sold and the vast majority of that at 50-70 discount because it wasn’t moving off shelves.
      Low take up of lens sales.
      Expensive marketing campaign.
      Probably high distribution costs.

    • lorenzaccio

      I really don’t think that the Nikon 1 line and, gosh, Canon’s fiasco were planned intentionally. I mean: they costed a lot of money to engineer and produce…

      • Esa Tuunanen

        Canon EOS M and Nikon 1 were probably meant to mess the market and harass more serious mirrorless makers.
        Even if they aren’t sales success because of designs/feature sets/performance they are success elsewhere by also discrediting all mirrorless cameras in the eyes of average consumers who then look back to old DSLRs… Which are dominated by Canikon.

        • @Esa Tuunanen
          canikon will have to move their DSLRs consumers (Pro and Enthusiasts) to mirrorless eventually, so if you think that is what their plan was then it wouldn’t be the wisest of moves?

  • Vlad

    Analyzed? He just put colors and exclamation marks.

  • People are tired of upgrading every time the technology changes. It generates waste, it’s too expensive to keep up and everyone knows the only ones laughing at the end of the day are the corporations.

    The consumer is smarter than this and the market is starting to reflect that (not just cameras, but all consumer devices). Yes, you can charge us an arm and a leg for a camera, I’m not arguing the production costs or the fact quality is expensive… but don’t try to sell us crappy incremental upgrades every few months. Put out quality, honest products, and people will pay the premium price if they know it’s a product that will last.

    Until then, I’d rather wait for the same fire sales everyone is waiting for. In terms of cameras, I’ve never been an early adopter and I find no reason to be one.

  • Daemonius

    Lot of things going on. One of them is that economical crisis sorta isnt present in Asia that much. But it is EU/USA which means lower capability of buying expensive stuff.

    Otherwise I find most mirrorless bit too expensive for what they offer. Plus there is that tiny fact, that output from slightly older FF dSLR is way better than any mirrorless (except RX1 obviously).

    Plus in USA I think mirrorless sorta compete with cellphones.

  • Zo

    Here is what is stopping me:

    1) The rising cost of everything: Food, gas, utilities and taxes. There is not a lot of disposable cash on hand so I am sticking with my E-30 and lenses I have. When my savings account is making less than 1%, I am in any rush to spend my money because whatever I purchase will also further depreciate with time.

    2) Everything is too expensive. $500 to $600 for a Olympus XZ-2? Nope, that is too much. I believe that m43 is a very expensive system when you consider the lenses especially the cost of primes. I know that the XZ-2 is not an OM-D, but m43 overall are very high priced and are competing with FF in some categories. The price of primes is insane.

    3) Still waiting for the m43 lenses that match my 43 7-14, 14-35 & 35-100 f2.0 lenses. I see nothing that to me matches the quality nor the range.

    4) I continue to wait for the hybrid m43/43 camera. I would like to reuse my lenses to help to save cost and still bridge over to the new world.

    I will eventually go into the m43, but I am not finding anything so compelling that I have to have given the current economy.

  • Mr IBIS

    AH HA! NOT ENOUGH IBIS! THAT’S WHY!

  • peevee

    Look at the PDF – total shipment worldwide in Jan-April’13 is 85.2% compared to year-ago (with almost no new cameras released in this period, compared to the year of OM-D and X-Pro1 and k-01, the last being significant as the first in their systems), while DSLRs show 82.1%, and non-ILCs 53.4%. Month-to-month variations are not significant as they depend too much on the specific camera release schedule (for example, most DSLR sales are made by Canon Rebels, so the release of a new Rebel – actually two, t5i and SL1 – is hugely skewing the April shipment numbers DSLR way).
    MILCs do not have monopolistic behemoths like that, although E-M5 was pretty popular camera last year, but its shipments were drawn out between February and July (and I guess for the many months after that). NEX-5N was pretty popular a year before.
    This year there is nothing like that yet, G6 is variation of the same, E-P5 (which was not available in the data to April) is overpriced and will not be a big seller. Maybe the new OM-D, if it REALLY supports 4/3 lenses and priced right, will be a big hit, but after E-P5 I am pretty sure it WILL NOT be priced right. Future cheaper Fuji have some potential, but again, if the kit with 18-55 is over $600-700 (and it will probably be over), it will not be a big seller worldwide.

  • Mr.NoFlash

    There is not trend against mirrorless.
    The DSLR:mirrorless ratio remained constant over 15 months..
    The DSLR:mirrorless ratio is very volatile if you only look at single months or quaters, but that is nonsense.
    You have to look at at least 15 months.
    I expained this here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51536804

  • lol

    WHAT is all this BS!! like all electronics, you pay a premium for smaller size. That goes for both lens and bodies. If you can’t afford it doesn’t make DSLR any better. Stop looking for difference to feel better about your preference or financial predicament. Mirror less or non moving parts is obviously the future. Same goes for EVFs…okay maybe a hybrid (x100s) for those die hard OVF guys but yeah things are moving along. Asian markets will obviously lead just like god dam everything else these days.

  • rather agree with lol: que sera, sera. In the end mirrorless will develop in Asia, where camera saturation is far from achieved. Probably wi fi will be the bridge with smart phones, and people eventually will expect the same quality they were getting from FF cameras of old.

    And since someone mentioned ART, in relation to dSLR, I will mention instead SKILL and mirrorless, which allowed me for the first time to do Street Shooting on a daily basis, a fascinating genre I would never have started with a dSLR. So money well spent after all…

    • ButyourpicsSuck!

      That’s it.

    • Aaaaannnd…..

      Your camera is the tool to satisfy your voyeuristic nature.

    • jeff

      What kind of drugs are you on, old man?

      • Anitbiotics

        The drug of life Jeff. Not the drug of gloom and doom you use. Your other name Tony Abbott?

        • jeff

          So you are on drugs! What kind of drugs are you on…” lamer?”

          • crystal balls

            Jeff you are such a happy silly soul, like abusing but cannot take it.

            • jeff

              For someone named ” crystal balls” I’m sure you love abuse. LOL

  • yip

    Looks like a lot of people are saying they need faster zoome …I disagree.

    My thoughts on the decrease would be:

    – the system is getting larger and larger and to the point where you may as well buy an SLR with bigger sensor, viewfinder included and attached, and on body flash.
    – some of these things are way too expensive compared to competitors and non competitor SLR’s
    – increased competition from Samsung, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, etc, etc.
    – increased competition from cell phones

    …and now, instead of working together, Oly is giving technology to Sony (competition) and Panny is working with Fuji (competition)

    For me the biggest advantage of the system is size, and that advantage is slowly getting smaller …so sepnd more money on a smaller sensor in a system with less lenses and worse AF (for moving subjects) …doesn’t make sense.

  • safaridon

    Good to see this data posted even if the title is misleading as the CIPA data is about shipments not sales. The very low shipments to US due to over supply versus demand hence the fire sales in US. However very poor Pany and Oly advertising & none availability responsible for much of that and reduced value of yen versus dollar also enables lower prices here. Stores dumping m4/3 equipment at fire sales may well have an adverse effect of future sales of newer models as buying public more reluctant to pay rising list prices. I think most manufacturers are hurting themselves by offering far too many camera models in the first place and changing them more frequently every year with marginal improvements.

    What is surprising is just how volatile the camera market is at present and new fads being very popular for a while they dropping quickly back such as the Nikon 1 and Canon EOS M. No doubt the iphone cameras are having the greatest effect on sales of compacts and mirrorless models as people are satisfied with the picture quality for the intended use and the advantage of instantly sharing with others.

    Just goes to show why manufactures may be paying more attention to sales and what people are buying than necessarily responding to the demands expressed on this forum.

    • @safaridon
      bit of a conflict in what you are saying in that Oly and Panny are responsible for non availability but at the same time dumping stock at “fire” sale rices.
      Oly and Panny have largely and delibrately not supplied stock into bricks and mortar USA. Probably due to high marketing and distribution costs there , lower margin in the USA and the fragile nature of some of their chain stores.
      Asia is where the growth and margin is….

  • I wonder what the readership demographic is for this rumors site … do we have readership that matches sales?

  • Juan

    Exactly the same that people from other european countries are commenting, it happens here in Spain. Nikon 1 got marketing campaigns but I never saw anything like that for any other mirroless system. And in the biggest tec-shops the offert of MFT is still quite ridiculous. Anyway I think we should have the chance here to take a look at the real data for just MFT sales, since I suspect they are quite diferent from the overall mirroless sales. Currently the main problem for MFT at least in Europe I think is that nobody knows still how really good it is! Even among the real fans of photography here in Spain is quite unknown so far. But I guess the change will come from the word of mouth from MFT users in internet forums rather than from marketing in TV, radio, shops, etc. Any user who has the chance talks about the MFT because the system has really overcome the midrange reflex in many things and its much more confortable to use. Unless something really strange happens in the next years I think that its a matter of time that MFT get the position it deserves. Anyway I insist, I’d like to see the data just for MFT to keep talking about it…

  • KinoZig

    Hi Pana ! Just give to the GH3 focus peaking and i will buy two this evening !

  • L

    I must be reading someþing wrong – as I see ðe numbers, mirrorleß has not grown as much as reflex in Japan, but it has fallen leß outside of Japan. As ðe Japan market is smaller, ðe balance seems good.

  • You should be reading Jordan Steele at Admiring Light for a sensible perspective. Overall sales are not as buoyant, but mirrorless is not failing that badly: they are, however, missing opportunities and should question their own directions. It was always on the cards Nikon & particularly Canon were going to fight hard with big ad budgets to protect their cash cows, which are the big lenses attached to big SLRs. WE all know you can make for the most part an equal image with a mirrorless camera, but the ordinary punter out there falls prey to the “for Pro results you must buy an SLR” song, especially the macho-headed buyers in the West who think a camera is a penis extension. Canon are successfully fielding budget SLRs because mirrorless alternatives aren’t perceived to offer value when they are similarly priced. Mirrorless costs less to make (no mirror box!) so they should look at their prices: lenses too. For the moment, an average punter THINKS he wants an SLR, so to spend big bucks on something that behaves like a compact doesn’t excite him. What mirrorless probably needs is more models that give off the SLR ethos, an EM5 is lovely but if anything it’s TOO small. Mirrorless was never really about SMALL, it was about new tech, and that’s what the makers are not selling well.

  • ajendus

    Have they considered how to market it better. In my experience, most people have no idea what a mirrorless camera is or what that means.

    “What is that camera?” They say, pointing to my EM5. Then I explain and the don’t get it. Probably cuz they don’t even know what a DSLR is either but they know Canon and Nikon and it is what everyone else has.

    Even some pro photographers have no clue what is beyond their Canon/Nikon systems (except for the really big stuff like Hasselblad, etc.)

    Once, however, I show them the camera, they holdit, take a photo or two or see the hoots I’ve shot, they go, “Wow, nice.”

    Are there many retailers out there who carry m43 cameras? Could be a valuable opportunity.

    • Anonymous

      Marketing is lacking indeed. People don’t know what it is and many retailers are unhelpful, they rather sell what they know.

  • Miroslav

    I´d like to se a brakedown, to see how each manufacturer is doing. I guess Panasonic is worst off, while Sony is quite OK and Olympus somewhere in the middle…

    I agree prices are the main problem ( where is 500 euro mirrorless Canon Rebel competitor? ), but bad marketing is another one. I still hear people asking which DSLR they should buy when looking for a “serious camera”. I try to explain the pros and cons of buying a mirrorless, but I should not be the one doing that, being only an enthusiast photographer.

    Another problem is the vast choice of shapes and sizes of mirrorless cameras. While being very good for the prosumer, average buyer cannot easily tell a mirrorless camera from a compact. Unlike DSLRs. Again, a marketing issue.

    And the inertia of a western buyer is also a factor, discussed many times here.

    Fortunately for us, Japanese companies are making cameras for Japanese market first and then for the rest of the world. So, mirrorless sales in Japan being quite solid, I´ve no fear the concept is going to fold anytime soon. Nevertheless, I don´t like this news.

    • Anonymous

      A little footnote from the very early 1970s.. the PEN F, while quite succesful in Japan, was replaced by the OM line because half frame was a very difficult sell to especially people in the USA

  • Crap

    Of course mirrorless sales are doing bad: once they cease being a novelty, people get stuck with the problems linked to the technology: basically, everything is worse than DSLR except size, and the price is higher.
    I am sure to get a lot of warm and competent replies, from some of the best photographers on the planet :)

    • morecrap

      your crap is total crap.

      • jeff

        Ding ding ding! Another mirrorless fanboy crying here. Someone get a napkin for the kid. Mirrorless cameras = over priced ovf-less dslr’s…in other words…crap.

        • Crap

          Precisely! I hope they will get better soon because I like the concept, but this is down to the big corps putting more money into research, possibly to the cost of marketing… Not going to happen.

  • Gregg Smith

    MFT lenses are EXCELLENT andit took me long way to choose for right camera/lense combo for my frequent travels. I didn’t have restriction on budget (well to say, within around 3000) and wished to have several lenses and reasonable portability. I didn’t have prior preference of DSLR over MFT over anything else.
    I used for several days (at least) most of cameras and dozen of lenses to get practical feel.
    Yes, MFT got my real attention and I can be very picky.
    I tried to justify DSLRs (not the lowest price range) over MFT and it didn’t worl. At the end of the day combo of Olypmus MFT camera with Oly 17/1.8, 75/1.8 and Pana 12-35 zoom took clear lead over any other combo within around 3000 $ budget.
    Just exactly lightweight and top quality tools, as I wished to have, this combo represents my dream come through for travels and pro pics I could make now. All together in reasonably small bag, light on shoulders during long walls.
    I can’t see DSLR providing same, it may be just one important reason, but it makes sense for high demanding MFT buyers.
    So, do your homework and for sure other guy may have completely opposite opinion related to size and weight vs. some other preferences. I don’t care for other guy, as I have to live with camre of my choice.
    Cheers.

  • Gregg Smith

    My choice was Oly OMD, just to be clear.
    In one word – FANTASTIC.
    Love it to bits and yes I am among guys who cannot care less for mirror being part of camera. When I see something I frame it and push the button, usually momentum is more important that few ‘tweak’ elements that should be considered as well for pro photo.
    I know pro guys hate such ‘consumer’s comments’ approach, but that’s it. I’m no pro, but like great quality of pics I make, so demand on quality is high. I would hardly consider such category of users as ‘stupid consumers’.

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